<p>carolyn, yes, we were those parents ignoring the GC. What he could have told us to induce us to behave more rationally was that we needed to have a less top-heavy list so that the final pattern of acceptances and rejections and wait-lists would be a more rational distribution if disaster did not strike and a real alternative if disaster did strike. That even if we got a final good outcome we would still want to have a few more matches and preferably ones that gave answers early in the process. I just kept telling myself disaster would not strike me, like a teenager drinking and driving. We were lucky this time but our risk profile, to use an investment term, was way under-optimized.</p>
<p>"Overanxious mother, I am disappointed when I read posts like yours. Did you ever ask the guy about people who took scholarships at less prestigious schools? Are they screwed?"</p>
<p>DStark:</p>
<p>From the point of view of the person who lunched w/my son, the harsh reality is yes, probably they are--if not screwed, at least significantly disadvantaged...this particular set of jobs (Federal policy-making) is probably as "chased after" as admissions to HYPSM (I have no statistics; it's just a gut feel)...someone w/out a "pedigree" getting to an interview (w/out "knowing someone") would be like someone w/a 1200 SAT getting serious consideration at HYPSM...of course, there's always the exception...the kid who knows someone, or who did something so spectacular (an Olympic gold medalist comes to mind!) that the undergrad school won't matter...but for your average standout student (how's that for an oxymoron!), s/he won't get past the pile of resumes (without knowing someone) w/out the "right" schools (and performance at said school) on the resume...</p>
<p>Of course, not all jobs are like that--just as not all schools have admissions issues like HYPSM...but if you're a kid chasing one of those jobs (or one of those in-short-supply spots in, say, vet school), then it's definitely an advantage to have gone to a selective college (or maybe even a disadvantage not to have)...despite scholarships and affordability and "fit" and all the other very valid issues that go into a rational choice of school. </p>
<p>I don't know a single HS senior who thinks "prestige" matters...but I also don't know one who wouldn't (given the choice, which involves both admission and money) go to the selective school over an honors program in a school that offers money to entice the stellar students...and each and every one will concede that their education is what they will make of it; they can get a fine education at the school that entices high-achievers w/scholarship money--but they still will choose the selective schools if they get in and if they can afford to go...</p>
<p>I grant you, the HS seniors I know are from a highly competitive HS (their admission to this school in 9th grade was not all that different from their college apps...this year, for example, this HS admitted 495 out of 2900 applicants)...not a representative group, but probably a group representative of the kids who apply to HYPSM, and then another 10-12 top 25's, often w/out safeties on their lists...and most of them do get admitted to at least several of their "mass apps"...and they worried themselves into a frenzy in late March waiting for their admission decisions--and most of them got rejections and WLs along w/their acceptances...</p>
<p>So, it's sad, but true...if not in general, at least in the world where these kids live and aspire to get to...</p>
<p>"As far as the hiring practices of the government, let's remember that government does not necessarily equate with common sense or intelligence."</p>
<p>Can you hear me shouting w/gleeful agreement out here in govt-land???!!!!! SUCH a true statement!!! Thanks, Xiggi....</p>
<p>Overanxious mother - My husband is the head of the hiring committee for a 1200-plus division in the Federal Government. When they are hiring "new professionals" (i.e., kids right out of college or grad school), they have extremely strict rules on how hiring is done. These rules are Federal policy. Each and every job MUST be advertised to applications from a broad array of applicants, including current federal government employees. They also have to consider a selection of candidates - there is no Back door "because so and so went to College A" allowed. These rules are standard throughout the Federal Government and I can tell you that the Federal PErsonnel Management agency comes down like a hornet's nest when they aren't followed to the letter.</p>
<p>Husband says that when the hiring committee gets down to the nitty gritty decisions for entry-level professionals, they don't look at which SCHOOL the applicant applied to but rather the grades, courses, and experience (internships) the person is bringing to the table. They have to be able to prove without a doubt that they have chosen the best candidate for the job on tangible factors, not simply who a candidate knows or which school he went to. Again, this is Federal government policy for entry level professional jobs. (Of course, this may not apply at higher levels where say a President is APPOINTING people to jobs but I don't think ANY recent college grad have received high level presidential appointments<grin>)</grin></p>
<p>They are also very sensitive about the expectations of grads from Ivies and other "top" schools and often as not offer the job to equally well qualified candidates from less prestigious schools because of this --- often the jobs they have offered to candidates from Ivy level schools have been turned down because of the low government pay scales relative to the non-government world. (And those pay scales are standardized throughout every level of the federal government, I assure you).</p>
<p>This is another side of the story that you may want to relate to your son so he has additional insight into how hiring is done in the federal government. :)</p>
<p>I'm really surprised you don't know a high school kid who thinks prestige matters given that the school you describe is certainly one of prestige in you area. If I'm to be honest, I would say that kids who are well aware of rankings in general do not want to go for the money enticements schools throw out to get you to ratchet up their averages. We are very aware of this as an option and don't think highly of schools who use it to go up a few notches.</p>
<p>Of course, the federal government is a large organization but this is another side of the story. But, just as the federal government's divisions may differ, so too do the hiring policies and preferences of the literally hundreds of thousands of employers out there</p>
<p>I absolutely agree. But the jobs I was referencing are the flip side--My friend who lunched w/my son hires for a Congressional committee...they hire interns, professional staff, administrative staff, tech support staff...and the resumes of the people who hold those jobs are amazing...true--some of the staffers knew someone before they were hired. Many, however, were interviewed after their resumes were plucked from a huge pile of applicants...and that huge pile was culled by--among other things--where the degrees were earned...it's reality that where you earned your degree will matter a lot in this type of situation...there's no way to tell from a pile of 400 resumes which applicant went to State U's honors program instead of HYPSM because of finances...and the HYPSM (and 25 add'l selectives) summa cum laude degrees just plain look better than the State U degree, whether or not it came from an honors program...</p>
<p>
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as few outside of the US have heard of it
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<p>Perhaps you mean to say Asia? Brown has long been a haunt of Euro/Arabicyouth.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If I'm to be honest, I would say that kids who are well aware of rankings in general do not want to go for the money enticements schools throw out to get you to ratchet up their averages. We are very aware of this as an option and don't think highly of schools who use it to go up a few notches.
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<em>add to get ten characters</em></p>
<p>overanxious mother, we live in different worlds and thanks for telling me a little about yours.</p>
<p>I have to say when I first read your initial post, I thought, "most federal jobs". </p>
<p>If you want to work on Wall Street, have a major political career, or be a top corporate lawyer in certain cities, then it will probably help to go to certain schools or be born into the right families.</p>
<p>Not all of us want that.</p>
<p>This is a topic I struggle with all the time. On the one hand, I know many, many people who have experienced life and professional success who went to schools like Rolla, A&M, St. Lawrence, Beloit, UDelaware, Colorado St. etc, etc. In certain professional areas these schools are as well known as any other. The networks of alumni are fabulous. The further I have lived from RT. 128 in Boston, the more this is apparent to me. And, the kids of these parents are going to Rice, Georgetown, Pomona, Princeton, among other places. </p>
<p>And then.....now that I am about as far away as you can get, I also know that to work in some Asian countries, you had better have some "name recognition" on your CV... . In fact, my ability to be employed in one country is completely contingent on the medical school I attended (nothing I have done in the interim 22 years matters more). If I didn't attend one of 15 US schools on a list, I could only be licensed on a "conditional" basis in this case. </p>
<p>You never know where life is going to take you, you never know where a job or a partner or an opportunity might lead. All things being equal, kids who want to have the most open doors can do themselves a favor, all things being equal, by keeping these facts in mind. I am convinced you can have equivalent life outcomes(see the wisdom of my mother in law thread!) regardless of your alma mater, I am also convinced that attendance at certain schools can help- a bit! These are not necessarily contradictory.</p>
<p>I guess the secret is to live far away from Rt 128, but not too far. :)</p>
<p>This world of the Ivies is very very very small, yet, it feeds on itself. Yale grads look to hire yale grads. If you have a big pile of applications, it is much easier ti whittle it down by pulling out certain grads from certain schools. It comes down to reputation of the institution and familularity as much as qualification of the candidates. It can account for some of the medicore people we see in certain government positions. I am not taking political sides, but it is kind of lazy of the people hiring if they just look at at job applicants from a select group of schools. That is sad. </p>
<p>Thank goodness, out of the government sector, many employers are more enlightened as to the wonderful colleges out there and the grads coming from them, and don't just focus on a dozen or so.</p>
<p>Overanxiousmom - I have a classmates from UC undergrad days with very influential congressional staff positions in Washington. I have a sneaking suspicion that the best colleges leading into good positions in government are GWU, American, & Georgetown, in no particular order -- because they've got the students who are in town taking the internships that build all the connections and the experience. Once a person is "in" to any job, no matter how low on the totem poll, it's all about the quality of their work -- if they are good at what they do, show initiative, are reliable, and willing to work hard, word gets around. I could get my 17-year-old daughter an internship in DC with a phone call - there's been a standing offer from a family friend since she was 15 - it isn't with congress but with a grass-roots lobbying organization, but I know my daughter - she's outgoing and smart, and she's a charmer. That would be the only foothold someone like her would need. </p>
<p>Sure, if you've never been to Washington or done squat for your Congressman, and just send in your resume .... the Harvard credential might mean something better than Podunk U...... unless you happen to be applying to work on the staff of the Congressman from Podunk. But Washington is very much a who-you-know kind of town. </p>
<p>The vast majority of jobs ANYWHERE are filled via networking and inside connections. The connections don't have to be with high-powered people - they just have to be people in-the-know. The best college to have attended is often simply the same college as whoever is doing the hiring went to.... which leads me to success that your friend who lunched with your son is probably an Ivy grad.</p>
<p>dstark,
Unfortunately for us the in between was...well it was...competitive wrestling for 1st graders. I will say no more so as not to insult the lovely, gracious people of that fine state...it just wasn't for us..</p>
<p>You never know where your partner's work might lead you! I would never have guessed in as a 25 year old that I wouldn't have a nice Suburban Boston practice right now..My college advisor told me I was destined for a peripatetic life, I just wonder how she knew something I didn't.</p>
<p>Calmom,
You've hit my son's dilemma on the head. How sure is he that he wants the inner sanctums of DC to make that choice...when the others have so much appeal as well...might summer connections and a semester or two in DC do...</p>
<p>Robyrm, I guess we should all just relax and not plan too much. :) Are you enjoying life in the Far East? As globalization occurs, we may be picking up this "You have to get into the top schools or perish mentality". Maybe, with globalization, instead of picking up the best of each country, we will pick up the worst.</p>
<p>By the way, we expect a thorough report about your trip when you get back.</p>
<p>Dstark,</p>
<p>Life here exists on many tiers and at most of them people worry about "rice" not "Rice"...I like them all...As for the impostion of "there is nothing between first and last" mentality...it is risky and insidious- agreed. But, experiencing the day to day realities of so many less fortunate than oneself has a way of creating balance. Who me, plan too much??</p>
<p>Dstark. Yes, let's all relax and pour a few margarita's. Now you're talking. :)</p>
<p>jmmom, simply, we don't admire colleges that use their money to enhance their rankings rather than give it to kids who really need it. The schools most generous with merit aid to high scorers are usually the ones who gap kids who need aid.</p>
<p>Does it matter how WELL the student does while in college/university? Obviously, the final pool of students selected by the Ivies and other highly selective schools are high achievers, but after 4 years someone has to graduate from those universities and be at the bottom of their class. When those students (2.0 GPA) are applying to graduate school, law school, med school, business school ..how are they viewed compared to students who went to a state-university graduating summa cum or magna cum? Just wondering ..</p>