Stop the insanity

Parents Forum
101

<p>"Sure, if you've never been to Washington or done squat for your Congressman, and just send in your resume .... the Harvard credential might mean something better than Podunk U...... unless you happen to be applying to work on the staff of the Congressman from Podunk. But Washington is very much a who-you-know kind of town. </p>

<p>The vast majority of jobs ANYWHERE are filled via networking and inside connections. "</p>

<p>As a person who lived 10 years in DC, I agree !</p>

<p>I also had a student from a nonDC third tier college who got a wonderful summer internship by walking around the Capitol with her resume and talking to various congressmen's aides.</p>

<p>My exstudent managed to walk into an office just after the congresswoman had fired her press secretary. My former student was a journalism major with some nice published articles in the school newspaper. She was offered on the spot a nonpaid internship as the congresswoman's press secretary for the rest of the summer. </p>

<p>The student got a wonderful experience writing speeches, organizing press conferences, etc., and was offered a paid internship for the next summer. </p>

<p>Being in the right place at the right time and having the nerve to ask for an opportunity can be more fortuitous than having a degree from HYPS.</p>

102

<p>Amen, Northstar.
Time and place and preparedness...along with tenacity and determination...these are the factors that create opportunity!</p>

103

<p>Wow, it took 1/2 hr. to read through this thread. I have so many thoughts spinning, but basically my gut just keeps coming back to the job thing. I've gotten every job I've ever applied for. My H too. What did we do wrong? We didn't go to elite schools (I went to UCLA at a time when they probably accepted 75% of their applicants - couldn't get in now). Connections? What are those? I've hustled after what I wanted because it mattered to me, and I made it matter to someone else. I'm happy. I like me and I like what I "do" (or have "done"). I hope my kids' world will operate the same for them.</p>

104

<p>Ergo, tenacity and determination (AKA, hard work and sweat!!) were your mantras. It is always great to hear success stories from those who aren't covered in "ivy." :)</p>

105

<p>This thread is just what we have been grappling with for the last couple months. D has been accepted early write to American (Presidential Scholar - full tuition 4 yrs, Honors SFS), U Chicago, Amherst and Middlebury. We already told Princeton adn Georgetown to take her off their wait lists. We have pretty much eliminated Middlebury. Now, the dicision is this - D wants Chicago but their FA was somewhat sad. She loves history, foreign language, IR, etc., and won the State Citizen Bee last year - will be competing at state again this year. The merit award at American can't be beaten. With additional outside scholarships, it would be close to a free ride. And she knows (right now) she wants to study IR. Her concern is that while American's IR department is awesome, that she may decide to change majors and she is concerned about the other departments. Will her degree outside of IR get her into a great grad program? Is the American IR degree enough to get her into a great grad program? Is it worth paying and really reducing my circumstances (single mom, school teacher) dramatically, really worth it? Will she get that job? Or are the contacts made through internships at American going to serve her better in the long run? As one of their top Presidential scholars, will she get the plum internships? Any advise or experience out there that I can share with her? She really wants a job with State where she can travel and see the world a bit.</p>

106

<p>" She really wants a job with State where she can travel and see the world a bit."</p>

<p>As a person who lived for 10 years in DC, including going to grad school there, I do think that if she takes advantage of her location at American -- gets internships, makes contacts, she'll be in better shape than if she goes elsewhere.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, I went to an Ivy. I still think that DC is a place in which contacts count, and living in DC can lead to marvelous contacts.</p>

107

<p>evitajr1,
I could have written your post about my son. The schools are different (GW- honors program versus Penn?? or CLaremont-McKenna or Carleton?? or MIT (WL)), the money offered was a nice surprise, but is not a huge factor for us. The dilemma is much the same, however....</p>

<p>Son thinks he wants poli sci and where better to go than DC? The DC family members (ie my H's whole family) feel he should definitely go to GW- for all the reasons articulated... His dad and I are leaning elsewhere. We want him to have a college experience in full- perhaps including summer internships in DC/semester in DC...but not feeling like he has to commit his college career to a DC career path. We want him to be at a school where the other non poli-sci domains are as rich and we want him to have a very stimulating peer group- which he needs. </p>

<p>Yikes, nice to have choices. I hope the trip we make next week will lend clarity.</p>

108

<p>Thank you so much for your input, northstarmon. I keep thinking that saving my resources and helping with grad school rather than spending it all on undergrad might be the way to go, and my D would make excellent contacts in DC. On the other hand, robrym, you made an excellent point - she likes to be challenged and is very much a Renaissance woman - loves other things like Art History, medieval lit, etc., and I am concerned that the scholastics outside of IR at American might be lacking. Even if she were on an Honors floor, many of the students are not of the same intellectual level, and her things are Quiz Bowl, Trivia games, and reading. So, we are discussing the pros and cons of contacts versus academic challenge, which she revels in, saying "I hate not knowing something!" I am concerned that she won't be fulfilled at American, as she would be at Chicago or Amherst. Ultimately, it will be her decision, but you all's advice will make our decision easier, if still painful.</p>

109

<p>evitajr, is there anybody at American she can talk to that is also a Presidential Scholar so she can get an idea what her experience may be like academically and socially?</p>

<p>Aren't Amherst and Chicago offering decent amounts of money? </p>

<p>Edit: I see you aren't happy with Chicago's package. Then it is time to negotiate.</p>

110

<p>Almost every school has its core of intellectual students, those that like to discuss politics or play trivia pursuit. And I can guarantee that reading is still available (sometimes even required...ha, ah) at all colleges. The idea that a student will not be challenged if they do not go to an elite school is not rational to me. While self-driven students may be more common on elite campuses, they are, after all, "self-driven." A curious, creative, self-driven student can ALWAYS find mentors, a faculty member of graduate student who will be there to work with them. We sometimes make it sound as if NOT attending an elite school equates to sending our children into some kind of intellectual desert, someplace where there cerebral cotex with wither up and die. We make it sound as if we are sending them off to an austere and barren place if they attend a "less pretigious" school. Not so! Remember: the professors at just about every school ARE usually pretty knowledgable and, at some schools where they have more time to teach and are not driven to publish and research, are even more willing to mentor and share their knowledge.</p>

<p>The drive towards and striving for excellence is a function of your daughter, not the school. The school can only enhance that drive by offering opportunity to learn. Amherst is a great school. but American is not exactly the "desert." </p>

<p>There is a line in the musical song "Circle of Life," from Disney's Lion King that says in our lifetime "there is more to see than can ever be seen, more to do than can ever be done." I think at most colleges/universities, there is more to learn than we can imagine, enough to fill up any 4-year experience if you only look for it. Some schools shove it down your throat, some schools encourage you to think, and at some, you have to look at little harder...but the opportunity and knowlege is there...everywhere.</p>

111

<p>There is something very different in being at a school where the vast majority are of similar high intellegence and one where there are many smart kids but a broader range. For me, arriving at such a school felt like finding my people and finding a real home. I also think that having all kids function at a high level inspires teachers. The dynamic is just a whole different thing.</p>

112

<p>Tututaxi writes:</p>

<p>"Does it matter how WELL the student does while in college/university? Obviously, the final pool of students selected by the Ivies and other highly selective schools are high achievers, but after 4 years someone has to graduate from those universities and be at the bottom of their class. When those students (2.0 GPA) are applying to graduate school, law school, med school, business school…..how are they viewed compared to students who went to a state-university graduating summa cum or magna cum? Just wondering….."</p>

<p>If they're going on to grad school or professional school, it matters a great deal how they did as undergrads. The level of competition at the school is taken into account, but the magna or summa kids from state schools will have a much easier time of it than 2.0 Ivy grads the next time around.</p>

<p>Standardized tests count as well, but in any event, you can't get into any medical school with a 2.0 GPA, regardless of where you got it. Likewise, most law schools and business schools will be out of reach for the 2.0 student.</p>

113

<p>Evitajr1 and Robyrm, </p>

<p>Congratulations on your children's choices, but this is a tough one. On the one hand, DC is a fascinating city, with wonderful opportunities for study and contacts in IR and/or poly sci. If your kids' current interests persist throughout college, American and GW could be perfect for them. </p>

<p>On the other hand, if money were no object, I have to admit that I would be drawn to some of the other options on the table, which offer a truly amazing all-around education and intellectual stimulation. While I absolutely agree that a student with curiosity and drive can succeed anywhere, I also agree with Suze that finding a community of like-minded peers can help a child to soar. I don't know how likely it is, but it would be great if some of the other schools could come up with more money.</p>

<p>Good luck--your kids sound like true winners either way.</p>

114

<p>This thread has me interested like I haven't been since I was in school myself (back in the deep dark ages!)...it's just fascinating! Thanks for the mental "fun", everyone...</p>

<p>Anyway, just to clarify if there's anyone out there who still cares: my friend the "lunch advisor" to my son did not go to an Ivy (he went to his State U)...he absolutly does look for achievement (grades, outside activities, accomplishments)...and to defend him even further: consider he gets, on average, 50-70 resumes for every job he has to fill...the vast majority of those resumes "sparkle"...straight As, nat'l achievement awards, interesting summer work, etc. Virtually always, one of the few "early" distinguishing factors is where the kid is from (school/home)...he sounds elitist, but he's really not--it's really just reality...he cannot interview 50-70 people for one job, so he culls...and consequently, undergrad school (or grad or prof, depending on the job) almost always matters--</p>

<p>My S is choosing between U VA, Northwestern, Georgetown & Cornell, with his current "state of choice" being between G'town & Cornell...the purpose of the lunch advice was to talk about how much more valuable the G'town degree would be (we thought), should my S choose to follow a political path (something that interests him greatly, along with science)...much to our surprise, my friend was most emphatic about recommending Cornell over G'town as background for a Capitol Hill job...he explained that given "equal" appearances on the resume, he'd pick the Cornell applicant to interview (he also explained why, but this post is already way too long)...</p>

<p>Please note: we're assuming equal appearances on the resume...a superstar from the committee chairman's home state who went to school at Podunk U trumps the unknown superstar from Harvard...and also please note: this is the very first step--there are lots of other steps where the candidate can succeed (or fail) that have nothing to do w/where s/he went to undergrad...</p>

<p>And that segues nicely into this morning's thought: there are lots and lots of ways to give oneself a little edge--and a degree from a "stratospheric" school (w/stratospheric performance backing it up) is just one. Knowing someone (networking) is huge. Luck is huge. Hard work and hustling is huge. Accident of birth/geography can be the deciding factor. A kid can have some, none or all...the real question is the degree to which choices, like where to go to undergrad, should matter in building that "arsenal" of extra edges...</p>

<p>So, bottom line: where a kid (like my S) is fortunate enough to have choices like the four he has--does he maximize the random factors that could help in later pursuits by picking Cornell--clearly the best science of the four, which remains his most compelling interest? He's leaning toward yes...factoring in that his home is in the DC area, and he has parents who know some people who might be able to help, so he can maximize DC contacts w/out the school's (G'town's) cachet in landing a summer or semester internship--</p>

<p>And would G'town, Cornell or Northwestern be "worth" that massive extra money over U VA (not only do we get instate tuition at U VA--where he was offered two honors programs, Echols and one in science), but also back when he was 8, I bought a prepaid tuition contract...it literally is the difference between $43,000/year and $6,000/year!)...</p>

<p>S is struggling mightily w/that...(I started his college savings programs when he was 6 months old--despite the fact that this long-term planning pretty well kills any chance at all for needs-based financial aid, it does give me the ability to tell him he absolutely can choose the "Designer schools"; the money is there to pay for them...he knows it's a finite amount of money and that if he spends it on undergrad tuition, it's not there for post-undergrad choices...and there are other things he'll give up if he chooses this route: if he goes to U VA, he pretty much is guaranteed there will be the resources to pay for a semester abroad, or a car for his later years as an undergrad...no such guarantees exist if all the savings are committed to tuition)...</p>

<p>So...we come back to the "value" of the Ivy (and other selectives--and we're fortunate in that our State U choice is itself a selective)...I don't know where S will come out in his decision (and I'm trying desperately hard to stay out of it...one reason I "babble forth" so much here on CC; it gives me an outlet--thank you yet again!)...but I agree with him and his GC that he likely can't make a "wrong" choice here--he is certain he'll be happy and productive at any of the four...and I'm still pretty shocked by my Hill friend's advice that given all these factors, Cornell remains the unambivalent clear choice for my son, given where he wants to go w/his life as of now...so, I conclude yet again that while there's no "right path" to success in life that's best for every kid in every circumstance, there is real value to shooting for the selectives and that that value goes well beyond elitism or bragging rights ...</p>

<p>Anyone want to bet a hot fudge sundae that I'll be a regular visitor to Ithaca over the next four years???</p>

115

<p>"she likes to be challenged and is very much a Renaissance woman - loves other things like Art History, medieval lit, etc.,"</p>

<p>D.C. is full of people with such interests, and there also are plenty of gloriously free and cheap lectures and presentations on such topics. The nation's capitol is a place for feasting on the finer intellectual things of life. I imagine that some of these things definitely will be on campus. Many will be off campus. One can never run out of interesting intellectual and cultural things to do in D.C.!</p>

116

<p>" We sometimes make it sound as if NOT attending an elite school equates to sending our children into some kind of intellectual desert, someplace where there cerebral cotex with wither up and die."</p>

<p>Iflyjets,
Well said. I believe many people here are guilty of this, myself included. CC is very informative and helpful but there is a dynamic here that feeds into this notion. I know many long time respected posters try to encourage exploration of colleges outside the top 20, but the reality is that many of these posters have a son or daughter who attends HYPSM, attended themselves or are somehow affiliated with one. This tends to skew the conversation towards these institutions even if it is not intended.</p>

117

<p>"she likes to be challenged and is very much a Renaissance woman - loves other things like Art History, medieval lit, etc.,"</p>

<p>Does American have any sort of program where kids can take classes at some of the other DC schools (i.e., Georgeton, GWU, Catholic U)? If so, that might broaden her options in terms of classes and intellectual companions. Just a thought.</p>

118

<p>"The nation's capitol is a place for feasting on the finer intellectual things of life."</p>

<p>Too bad that the people who share the rarefied air of finer intellectual things in our capital have not been able to change the more mundane problems of K12 education in DC. It a shame that most locals students need remedial classes to read the signs at all those fine institutions of intellectual greatness. Whenever we compare the education progress in the United States with other industrialized nations, we should use DC as our yardstick. One could hope that this embarassment to our nation would transcend to the worldwide embarrassment it shoud be. </p>

<p>Washington could very well be the cruelest and most cynical city in the world. Oh well, I almost forgot that Washington must be the only city in the world whose mayor manufactured his own license plate.</p>

119

<p>Cornell versus two Honors program at UVA? </p>

<p>Even with similar prices, I do not think the choice should be very hard. With a $140,000 difference, I would run to UVA.</p>

120

<p>


I think many kids with top stats do apply to state and other safety schools; the nightmare scenario of kids who are denied admission everywhere is fortunately very rare, albeit heart-wrenching when it occurs. Applying to a range of schools, however, does not guarantee that the choices will be regarded as happy. In fact, as she posted in a long and very active thread before her son's elite acceptances came through (“Dealing with a Dream Denied…” <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=44273%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=44273&lt;/a&gt;), Berurah was filled with anguish at the prospect that he might end up at U of Miami or U or Kansas rather than at a more selective school: “How does one go about dealing with the emotional aftermath of dreams denied? For as long as I can remember my son as a student, he has been so singularly focused and committed to his dream of pursuing a top-notch college education. He has never faltered in his efforts toward this end….”</p>

<p>I absolutely agree that college applications have become too concentrated on the same few, increasingly competitive schools, and that all candidates could benefit from a broader search for excellent alternatives. But the higher-achieving the student, the less easy it may be for him to be genuinely content at a radically less selective college. At the risk of making myself very unpopular on this forum, I'm not convinced that the kids who have always stood out in class, who have developed passionate and sophisticated outside interests, who may have felt like fishes out of water among students with lesser ambitions, will always receive an equally excellent education at a college that accepts the majority of its applicants. Can they receive a good education? Yes. Can they be successful in later life? Of course. But is it insane for them to risk disappointment by aiming high? I'm not so sure.</p>

<p>***"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."</p>

<p>--Lewis Carroll***</p>