Student Expectations Seen as Causing Grade Disputes (New York Times)

<p>Do the students that "don't test well" tend to complain more about their grades in college?</p>

<p>to the above post, i think it depends on the kind of test. i am a HORRIBLE multiple choice test taker. I don't know why, but I am. give me the same material and ask for short answer or essay and I'll nail it. in college, it just depended what kind of class it was and how they tested. ;)</p>

<p>That grades are inflated more these days is certainly not true. Freshman intro courses are not indicative of the level of difficulty or curve which higher courses are based on. Last semester, I had a class in which half of the peole had a 50 or below, those students failed the course, there was no curve to save them.
Personally, I believe curves should be abolished, all they do is cause sneaky students to try and gauge how the class is doing, which is why I always reply "I did fine" to those who ask about my grades. Likewise, if everyone gets an A+ in the class, either the students truly get the material or the professor had very easy tests; either way, all students should get exactly what they earned, and no penalty should be taken against them for other students' grades.</p>

<p>My HS is one of those schools that has moderately high grade inflation and also a moderately high dropout rate in the 1st semester of college. We have ~350 per class and I'm pretty safe in saying that a 4.0 weighted average won't get you in the top 20%. There's a few teachers that give out honest grades, but for the most part, A-/B+ is the median. Supposed "B+ kids" are the average, state school kids here. </p>

<p>Also, semester exams affect semester grades, but can't count for more than 20% of your grade. A students are infamous for not studying for the exam at all, getting anywhere from an A to a C, and keeping their average. That's not the way that college works, but I'm sure that many will change their tactics and adjust just fine.</p>

<p>I'll admit, I'm so used to scaled tests in hard classes and easy tests in normal and easy classes that college will truly be a change, even if I consider myself brighter than the average student. I don't think that teachers do us favors by making it so easy to get an A because we won't focus on learning the material, only regurgitating info on tests and doing hw while watching crappy reality TV shows. </p>

<p>I've never been graded on a bell curve, though.. and hopefully never will be. The only argument that makes sense on that one is when you have a truly awful teacher, but even then, you see the true problem that needs to be addressed..</p>

<p>My brother's software company gives their hires a test (after they've passed the initial resume review and interview) to see what they actually know. It seems to work for them.</p>

<p>I know my son was told at a "resume class" last year, that when employers don't see your GPA mentioned they know it was probably under 3.0 which is the lowest number they say to list. They also said your majors GPA can be listed alone if that is more aligned to the position you are applying for.
A pyschology professor I know in CT was bemoaning how so many students don't show up for class very often and then want A's. She wants to shut her phone off when the grades go out and whining begins. If you don't show me you put in the effort, in your attendance and reading, etc. I don't see why I have to help you get into grad school or graduate. College professors though, like high school teachers are under pressure to pass, the stats mean so much. I think it was the NYTimes that had a great article on it a year or so ago.
On a diffferent level, we had a well-respected high school in the news with talk of inflated grades, many "A" students not being A students and many athetes getting a lot of help in grade inflation. I think many times you hurt the student too. My old babysitter went to a magnet high school that inflated grades and she had to leave a tier 3 college because she couldn't do the work, she was very unprepared. She warned me about it and said all the accolades meant nothing, when she wasn't prepared.</p>

<p>"...all the accolades meant nothing, when she wasn't prepared."</p>

<p>Exactly, Debruns!</p>

<p>Too many kids spend their lives in a cozy school of "self-esteem" that is actually doing them no favors.</p>

<p>I never listed my GPA on my resume and it was over 3.0... and they never asked what it was. They asked me some questions/scenarios where I had to take what I learned and apply it to real world... but never once asked me what grade I got on what I learned.. and this was a Fortune 100 company that I still am with four years later... so I don't think all companies care.</p>

<p>Most students at our college will list GPA on resume following the 3.0 rule above. Some companies that recruit through our career center will pre-screen by having a gpa cut-off. Some will also include testing along with the interview process.
One company even had a 3 round interview process for a summer internship with math & verbal testing and a personality test.
It all depends on how the companies want to run it!</p>

<p>Unfortunately, it is the country's entitlement mentality. Wonder why we are behind other countries in eduaction skills or competitiveness, this is it.</p>

<p>This doesn't surprise me at all. I know I was shocked the first time that I got to my junior year of high school and my Spanish and Calculus teacher informed me that there was no curve and there was very, very few homework points (none for calculus- ~5% of our grade for Spanish). I bombed my first semester, but that was because I wasn't used to it. At the end of the year, I did fine because I knew what was expected. I feel as though I am prepared for college now because of that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Today, for colleges there are both financial and ranking incentives to avoid any weeding out process.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes. Even schools considered difficult like Georgia Tech are bowing to the pressure. The freshmen retention rate (one of those things US News rates) has gone up a heck of a lot in the last decade and I don't think it's because the students are any better. I was a TA for (what I consider) one of the hardest classes in electrical engineering and the exam averages were 90% or above. Some professors seriously drop the ball when it comes to difficulty.</p>

<p>Ok, at Cal Poly there is an engineering teacher named locacio. (sp. i know i got it wrong, its low-cah-see-oh). He takes pride in FAILING students. And for as much greif that anyone and everyone gives him for it. When you get through his class with a passing grade, you did it because you earned it. His feeling is that if you dont learn this work well enough you could end up killing someone with a mistake. Granted this is not the case for every major, but it is the way it should be approached by all. This is college, this is preparing us to be the next people who govern the country, take care of sick people, design, build, EVERYTHING!!! Why should it be acceptable to say that effort is enough for us. We should earn it, we should know what we are doing and why we are. I swear that if in 15 years i get a doctor, even if he got C's all though college and med school, he still got through, he damn well better know what he is doing, because if he or she doesn't, schools have failed.</p>

<p>Andrew Abbott the Occupational Sociologist reports that after 5 years (I believe) there was little difference in income for students with a 3.8 or a 2.8 GPA as undergrads. Perhaps there is a little too much concern about GPA.</p>

<p>i have strict guidelines for submitting work. it is amazing that even though the guidelines are reviewed in a hands-on lab, a majority of students fail to meet those guidelines. i am determined not to give in to the pressures of students to "award" them points because they worked a long time on the assignment. </p>

<p>hard-working students that exceed expectations are indeed the rarity. most do poor work, fail to attend labs/lectures, and are amazed when standards are not changed to accommodate them.</p>

<p>I found this discussion very interesting, because where I go to school (Switzerland), no one just expects A's or B's. (We grade from 1 - 6, 6 being the top grade, but it's all the same.) A's are incredibly rare, and the only time you can get them is if you work really really hard. Even B's are very hard to achieve, and everybody knows it.</p>

<p>When I was working on my college applications, I was frustrated with everyone from the US talking about their A-averages. As far as I can see, there are a million miles between our 6-average(impossible) and their A-average(quite common). That doesn't seem fair to me. Why should their averages look better even though we work (and learn) so much more?</p>

<p>By the way, I'm not just supposing that an A-average is better than a 6-average. I have been able to compare my 5+-average to my cousin's A+-average. And, without trying to sound conceited, he is lightyears behind even those in my class who have a 4-average.</p>

<p>The worst thing about it is that those grades they get "for attending classes" are better than those here who work harder and learn more. If you didn't attend classes or do work at my school, you would have an F-average and be expelled.</p>

<p>sev1991, luckily most American colleges know that European grading systems are very different from ours. You'll be fine.</p>

<p>Then why the hell won't the professor tell the students HOW to get an A, instead of giving Cs to everyone? It seems to me he WANTS people to get Cs so the students can actually care about his class? How desperate is this person?</p>

<p>Well, most teachers hand out a very clear expectations guide and grading system. </p>

<p>I think that this is a combination of an influx of very, very, very competitive (and bright) students and the willingness of teachers to let people slide a bit by bending the expectations. Unless making C's standard again becomes popular, which with the college frenzy (propelled by media, parents, and yes, even some CCers) probably won't happen, then this phase is going to be longer than we all think.</p>

<p>High GPAs look better, even with a high school profile attached... the emptiness of the GPA just continues to increase, which is why it's starting to disappear and be replaced with ranking, which is even worse.</p>

<p>I have to say that this whole argument is major and school dependent. I agree that there may be some expectations in some majors for a decent grade just for showing up, however, try asking the students at your school in engineering if they expect the same… I know that at my school in my major, you won’t get a C just for showing up. In fact, I would say there is a strong possibility that you will work very hard for a C, and if all you do is show up, you will flat out fail. A’s are generally reserved for the top 10% of the class, and the whole system is on a curve most of the time. Not a high school curve, where everything is curved to benefit the bottom students, I mean a curve that makes everyone have to work harder than their classmates in order to get the grade.</p>