<p>Smart and college educated has little to do with honest and ethical behavior. Cause and effect is the great educator but we have done away with that.</p>
<p>"WHY NOT THE SAME FOR COLLEGE EXECS? AND PROFS? Who the heck does he think is paying for them??? " </p>
<p>kayf There is too much spent on higher echelon administrators especially at the larger schools. But in general professorial pay is actually lower than it would be in the private sector for those who hold like credentials. And due to the use of adjuncts (nee academic sharecroppers) this ratio is becoming even more skewed. </p>
<p>Much of college cost is not attributable to teaching staff. It's trophy buildings, the overhead for such structures and non curricular elements which really bring the price of tuition into the stratosphere. </p>
<p>"Smart and college educated has little to do with honest and ethical behavior" </p>
<p>Sax quite true, often education is used to provide a convincing rationale for unethical behavior. That's what makes academe often disillusioning for some they find that the ivy towers tend to hide the same moral muck as in the private sector.</p>
<p>with your point about the difference between smart/educated and ethical/honest.</p>
<h2>I guess I was reacting to this statement by Atana:</h2>
<h2>Geekmom we reward the non-productive on a massive scale, much of our current economic debacle can be directly attributed to those who produce wealth for themselves by producing nothing of real systemic economic value. </h2>
<p>I hope this generation will change our society and our government back to being producers of good, useful things. I read today about how we are continuing to pay billions of tax dollars producing weapons that experts agree are obsolete.</p>
<p>Atana, I dont disagree with you, but my point is that once a bank takes a bailout, both that bank and the college are now being supported by taxpayers. There are no controls on costs. I do agree that adjuncts are treated disgracefully. The entire student loan industry took cost controls off of colleges. Rather than just looking at the student loan side, we must look at costs.</p>
<p>While I am generally not in favor of socialist policies, since we are embracing socialism in this country we might as well have some good socialism instead of bad socialism.</p>
<p>For people who teach school in the most dangerous and underpriveleged areas in the country, it seems fair enough to me to give something back if they do that job for 10 years. Ditto for social work and the like. My uncle was a social worker in Chicago and he has been attacked physically by the very people he was trying to help.</p>
<p>There are many public service jobs that in good times will go unfilled because people are pursuing higher paying corporate jobs.</p>
<p>I think this is also a way to acknowledge that kids coming out of college now can't find good jobs, through no fault of their own. How do you pay back 40k in loans working at the mall?</p>
<p>
we might as well have some good socialism instead of bad socialism
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think there's any such thing. Seems to me, the more those bozos -- uh, public servants -- tinker with the economy and try to help people, the more they screw things up. Then they blame the "free market system" -- which imho is kind of like cutting off a horse's hind feet and then blaming the horse for not pulling the wagon fast enough. But I digress.</p>
<p>"The entire student loan industry took cost controls off of colleges. Rather than just looking at the student loan side, we must look at costs."</p>
<p>Kayf quite true it is a overall condition. The dilemma is academe doesn't often admit to the simple and unfortunate fact that they are reliant on student debt. And until that becomes an open issue for discussion I really doubt there will be a genuine move to reduce costs. For academe what these loans have become are essentially a transfer of moral and financial responsibility. </p>
<p>And even the press within academe is reluctant to deal with this dichotomy. Chronicle is very careful (almost to the point of being in code) about how they approach the matter, Higher Ed watch is more aggressive but has a much smaller readership. And it's rare for exposes within academe based sources to get covered in the common media. </p>
<p>"I think this is also a way to acknowledge that kids coming out of college now can't find good jobs, through no fault of their own. How do you pay back 40k in loans working at the mall?" </p>
<p>You don't, and certainly do not do so teaching in a barrio, reservation or working in the medical field in such locations. And the longer it takes to pay back that 40,000 it soon reaches even more impossible levels. A rent to own or paycheck loan operation would be envious of some of the fee structures common to educational lending.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I dont see "public sector" jobs being underpaid. Why is it in Miami the other day, thousands lined up for jobs as firemen.
[/quote]
^^^kayf</p>
<p>On tonight's news they showed people lining up in cali for jobs at a group of new <em>THRIFT</em> stores! The jobs were for cashiers and clerks. The top salary of $50K was going to the managers of these stores. </p>
<p>The job market is REALLY REALLY REALLY bad. I was negotiating as a stay at home mom/failing wholesale plant business owner (we sold to landscapers and builders) to return to my job as an Investigative Accountant for the State Attorney's office. I have ELEVEN years of fraud investigative experience with Janet Reno. The most the office can pay me due to a soft hiring freeze is $36,678!!!!!! This is about $10k less than I was making when I left in 2000 - but as much as they want me back, this is ALL they have room in their budget for. </p>
<p>Public sector jobs ARE underpaid.</p>
<p>Mattsmom, </p>
<p>We are going to have to agree to disagree, or at least say some public sector jobs are not underpaid. Yes, certainly 11 years of experience, assuming you had an accounting degree, should get you more than 36K.</p>
<p>Well, <em>I'm</em> excited, even if the rest of you all aren't. I wonder if this affects existing loans?</p>
<p>kayf,</p>
<p>We're going to have to agree to disagree. From the toll booth clerk all the way up to the President, no one in the public sector is paid what they're worth. You could argue that perhaps due to pension income, health and retirement benefits, that in the long run, it may be worth it to take the pay cut, but that would be the only argument. And, yes I have an accounting degree. I started at 30K in '89, and was paid more than the beginning prosecutors who were paid $26K. Today, they start at $39K.</p>
<p><strong>And I dont see "public sector" jobs being underpaid. Why is it in Miami the other day, thousands lined up for jobs as firemen.</strong></p>
<p>I am honestly not trying to pile-on here, and everyone is entitled to their opinion...</p>
<p>But on firefighters? How much would you pay a person who is willing to go into a burning building to save your child? To me, we can't pay those people enough. And just cause there are a lot of applicants doesn't mean they are overpaid. People are looking for jobs.</p>
<p>Just a quick hi to everyone here, excellent topic you have going on with Student Loans.
I am still paying off mine from 2002 and have no relief in site.</p>
<p>Have a great day
jdstokes</p>
<p>Well, Matts mom in my unionized state, where the civil service unions are the major contributors to the political campaigns, the Town Controller, who is not a CPA, had been a supporter of the the elected polticos and had been unemployed for 10 years, is making 170K.</p>
<p>Then that proves there are exceptions to the rule, but it doesn't allow you to say that everyone in the public sector is overpaid. That proves some politicians are crooked - which is certainly a valid statement. </p>
<p>Btw, those prosecutors I mentioned, the ones earning $39K; they average $90K in student loan debt. These are the guys/gals who will be prosecuting the increasing number of burglars, murderers and rapists that will increase in number in this top-down economy we've got with our 7.6% in under-reported unemployment. </p>
<p>Someone earning $39k might take home $3k a month. In Miami, $1000 will go to rent for a 1 bedroom, another $1000k will got to student loan debt. That leaves $1K for everything else - food, cell, car, gas, tv, social life (the avg ASA is in their late 20's to early 30's). It's barely sustainable. The State Attorney's office here has a 36% turnover rate. Everytime someone leaves, that puts whatever cases they were working on on someone else's desk and raises the likelihood that the case will be dismissed. Kind of like the traffic cop who doesn't show up in court for your speeding ticket.</p>
<p>Getting rid of student loan debt would be a tremendous stimulus to this economy. Kind of like the nationalizing of health care. Instead money is just going to banks so they can lend more, so that more people will be more enslaved to their debt. Giving money to pay off student loan debt is definitely the direction we need to be going. Especially starting with the social workers, police, firefighters, prosecutors, teachers, etc.</p>
<p>Mattsmom, I dont think all public service jobs are overpaid, but where I live, in a nice safe uppermiddle class neighborhood, teachers, inlcuding K, can get paid up to 100K per year, AND pension and benefits. These people do not need more subsidies.</p>
<p>oh really - where is that? As a general rule, teachers' salaries do increase in their final five years by a dramatic amount in order to maximize social security, but those are very dramatic leaps in those final five years. This would mean that until then, the teacher might have been earning mid to upper 40's with 25 years experience, having risen from a low of the teens (say, 18K for a teacher who started in 1984) when they started. My husband is a high school math teacher. He started at $27K and is now at about $39K with about 12 years of experience. When he gets to 25 years experience, he will be about 63 and have to work until 68-70 to reach those maximum salary heights, assuming retirement age remains constant, which is doubtful.</p>
<p>Interestingly, right now, although he is a teacher helping children such as your own learn higher math and gain entrance to the best schools in the nation (he works for a private prep - they pay no more than the public sector) we are officially low income with an AGI below $30K. The reason the AGI is so much less tha the gross is that $9K of his gross goes to health insurance, and a minimum matched 401K deduction reduces it another few thousand.</p>
<p>Mattsmom,</p>
<p>I dont know where you get this "general rule" - maybe that is true in Florida. Where I live (NE US) salaries start at high 40s and progess linearly. No where near 9K annual contributions for health insurance. Your general rule is not true where I live. </p>
<p>I would be more than willing to support the student loan foregiveness programs you suggest in exchange for changes in compensation.</p>
<p>This has struck a nerve. In South Carolina, a family with 2 teachers with 25 years experience each with masters degrees are not making $100,000 combined!!!!!! We do not get a pay increase unless there is a cost of living increase after we have been working for 21 years. We pay around $4000 total for our health insurance. We do not have unions here. Maybe the northeast is a cushy place to be a teacher, but I know that in the southeast it's a different game. If you have a doctorate you will make a max of $60,000 a year!!! How many classroom teachers do you know that have doctorates and still teach at the K-12 level?</p>
<p>I wrote an email to our senators yesterday regarding economic stimulus. I suggested that the FIRST year of payments for ALL Stafford loans be forgiven. My theory is that these new graduates are just the ones who might "stimulate" the economy. Many of them will be setting up housekeeping for the first time. They will have consumer needs and most would probably love to get "new" things rather than hand me downs from others. HOWEVER if the choice is between paying the student loans and consumer purchases, they will HAVE to pay the loans. DS, for example, will have a $200 a month loan payment beginning six months after he graduates. He HOPES he finds some kind of job with health insurance benefits. BUT it is likely he will have a lot of difficulty doing so in his field (he will not be picky...but the job market is very limited). He may end up being underemployed or unemployed. AND he'll still have to pay that loan. He will not be working in a public service job so the OP to this thread will not help him at all.</p>
<p>IF he knew he had $200 to spend on something OTHER than a student loan each month, he probably would buy some necessary items. In fact, he really needs a car (used would be fine with him)...but affording a car payment AND paying the student loans would be difficult.</p>
<p>The adminstration said they wanted to give college students some relief...well, forgiving ONE year of student loans, the first year, would provide that relief, would put money in the pockets of likely spenders, AND would also buy them a years worth of time to either get better jobs or increase their earnings.</p>