<p>KayF,</p>
<p>In NJ, which is known for having the highest paid teachers in the country, the average salary for the 2006-2007 year was $44,176 for teachers with a bachelor's.</p>
<p>Thumper, good work! </p>
<p>Perhaps more will enter teaching and other public sector jobs should these loans be forgiven. My husband and I had the luxury to work for government, although we could have easily chosen private sector with our degrees. We graduated in the 80's when student loan debt was unheard of, principally because tuition was affordable. It seems tuition increased in straight trajectory to availability of loans - kind of like car prices after the introduction of leasing in the late 70's.</p>
<p>Mattsmom -- your site said as follows -- </p>
<p>Salaries are from the 2006-2007 Cherry Hills Public Schools Teaching Salaries</p>
<p>Per -- <a href="http://www.aft.org/salary/2007/download/AFT2007SalarySurvey.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.aft.org/salary/2007/download/AFT2007SalarySurvey.pdf</a>, a study put forth by the teachers union, has average NJ salaries for teachers of almost 60K, with the full time equivalent of 112 or so.</p>
<p>I am not that familiar with Cherry Hill, but I think it is in mid/Souther NJ, and not indicative of average.</p>
<p>Mattsmom and others -- sorry for excessive posts, the list of salaries by state is on page 22.</p>
<p>I think Cherry Hill is in Northern NJ...a very wealthy suburban community. I'm quite sure that the salaries in Cherry Hill are amongst the highest in NJ...not in the middle or the average.</p>
<p>I realize it's "open season on teacher salaries" but could we please stick to the topic of student loan relief?</p>
<p>Cherry is not in Northern NJ, it is in Camdem county, and if you and Mattsmom want to keep posting your "facts", I am entitled to refute them. </p>
<p>It is not open season on teacher salaries, but I do not support student loan relief targeted to civil servants. That is not fair to the rest of us.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I do not support student loan relief targeted to civil servants.>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Well...if you read MY post, I support loan relief for the first year of Stafford Loan repayment for ALL students who have taken out Stafford Loans.</p>
<p>Kayf,</p>
<p>You might want to check out Table 3 in the link you provided titled Average Teacher Pay Versus Comparable Professions Requiring Similar Education. </p>
<p>As for full time equivalent, lol... My husband tutors till 5pm 3 days a week, supervises math competition 1 day a week, and he tutors and teaches the lower school kids chess the 5th day; he took the Mu Alpha Theta kids to math competition yesterday (Saturday), teaches summer school, spends evenings grading papers, answering emails and phoning parents, and spends 1 week out of every 3 on lunch duty supervising kids. There are faculty meetings, department meetings and parent meetings. This is by no means a part time job. Oh, and I forgot to add that his first class begins with him awake and lecturing at 7:45am sharp, and his last one ends at 3pm.</p>
<p>I understand that you don't support loan relief for civil servants, but exactly who is it that you want teaching your kids? If there is no incentive to enter teaching, there are not enough dedicated bleeding heart liberals in the world willing to starve in order to do so. And, trust me I know; we bleed blue as the night.</p>
<p>It's interesting. My husband considers it a tremendous perk working where he does because most of the kids come from wealthy latin backgrounds, from 2nd and 3rd world countries where teachers are among the few who are college-educated, and as a consequence, he is treated with immense respect by both students and parents. Let's hope the economy improves and teachers here don't earn respect the hard way. By not paying them, by not considering college debt loads when hiring, by treating them as babysitters, we will get/are getting exactly what we deserve. And, the tremendous private preps and colleges will be overflowing with the internationals who can still afford them.</p>
<p>Mattsmom,</p>
<p>Every profressional I know takes work home, etc. I assume it is his choice to teach summer school. </p>
<p>What I am saying is that TARGETTING student loan relief for civil servants and giving them preference isnt fair -- </p>
<p>I am happy with my Ds teachers for the most part, and beleive they deserve respect, but that doesnt mean I think they are underpaid. In the county where I live, even in an up economy, there will be many many applications for every open teaching job. One of my relatives graduated with teaching credentials from our flagship state college and could not get a job here and had to move south. Not true for many jobs in private sector, which are not unionized. This blanket statement that teachers are underpaid is not true in every part of the country. </p>
<p>Thmper, I read your post, incluidng the one re Cherry Hill.</p>
<p>"I understand that you don't support loan relief for civil servants, but exactly who is it that you want teaching your kids? If there is no incentive to enter teaching, there are not enough dedicated bleeding heart liberals in the world willing to starve in order to do so" </p>
<p>Actually Mattsmom what you stated has been a substantial dilemma for some time, which has been massively compounded by the high fees and removal of basic consumer rights permitted to the corporate lenders. Last January the NEA published the article "My Debt My Life" In that essay they noted the incredible disparity between teacher pay and the attendant debts necessary to get a bachelors and a teachers certification. And they noted a very real concern that it may become impossible (or very difficult) to recruit teachers once wider knowledge of this problem becomes widespread. In my case I have taught specific teacher training courses and if I were still doing so quite truthfully I'd advise many not to become teachers at this point in time. </p>
<p>Granted there are loan relief programs for teachers who work in under served areas. But these are limited in scope, and have been limited further due to special lobbying by the corporate lenders. Primarily the loan programs which are effectively covered under these remission programs are the smaller federal programs, which have been marginalized in the recent past. And the core reality is that in places such as reservations the pay is so low that these loan remissions don't mean all that much. For example on one reservation the starting pay for the teachers in the state supervised schools is all of 23,000 a year.
And not every teacher has the psychological resilience to remain long in such a place. </p>
<p>There are also substantial issues in academe about this problem. Many people who've obtained the necessary collection of alphabet soup to teach in academe are so bound to debt that their standard of living is at times not a great deal better than their students. (At my school often the distinction between some faculty and student cars is the faculty cars leak just a little bit less oil) </p>
<p>These issues likely indicate that another generation of tweed jacket idealists (or fools) may not be available to teach in the universities and colleges. And this problem is obviously compounded by the increased use of adjuncts. As a side note, in some areas the adjuncts are becoming much less qualified. The people with better credentials have gone to other things, or given up. </p>
<p>Kayf-It's not necessarily a matter of one special group getting loan forgiveness, although that can be grating. For example many of us in academe really dislike the loan mediation programs given to the doctors and school teachers. </p>
<p>Whom ironically we train within a collegiate systems which condemns virtually everyone to unfair, excessive and often unsustainable debt. It's reached the point that some in academe are engaging in a form of genteel guerrilla action against the whole system by such acts as removing corporate posters and letting students in on the truth of the matter despite administrative directives not to do so. </p>
<p>I remain at my current institution as a form of service, but I also remain because that school is at least trying to move to federal directs for the student loan components of financial aid. (Plus the economies so bad that leaving is a unappealing prospect). </p>
<p>The core issue is that this unworkable system has been allowed to propagate for so long that like a malady or pestilence people have become so accustomed to its presence that they genuinely believe nothing can be done.</p>
<p>Atana, as I said before, any openings in my county for teachers have huge numbers of applicants. What difference would paying more make? The best get the jobs, the remainder ? Who may be very good, move away</p>
<p>You use as an example "on one reservation" -- most teachers dont teach on reservations. </p>
<p>I beleive that college costs have gotten out of hand, and the student loan industry has been the enabler, and that should be fixed, but I think many teachers are not underpaid.</p>
<p>Yes, he chooses to teach summer school where he can make a maximum of $4800 per year. That brings his salary from 34,500 to 39,300.</p>
<p>And, yes he is a professional, as are all teachers, firemen, policemen and whatever other civil service people you believe should be treated no more specially than your average wealth manager. </p>
<p>Teachers are quantifiably underpaid (refer to Figure 3 of the AFT chart you provided for the degree teachers are underpaid: <a href="http://www.aft.org/salary/2007/download/AFT2007SalarySurvey.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.aft.org/salary/2007/download/AFT2007SalarySurvey.pdf</a>). It's a little tough to know what the equivalent pay for a fireman or a policeman would be, but given the risks involved, I'd say that if a chart of it could be produced it would be impressive. </p>
<p>And they're doing just fine in Cherry Hill. From Wikipedia: "According to a 2006 estimate, the median income for a household in the township was $81,289, and the median income for a family was $95,559." Cherry</a> Hill, New Jersey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>And in your county how many of those large numbers of people are desperately applying for those teachers jobs because they are effectively trapped? For those who decided from the start to get teachers credentials its a matter of getting the job or being pilloried by the costs of their education. Second would be the people who'd had no thought of working in education but are doing so because their last trade has gone under due to our problematic economy. </p>
<p>As such, the market for teachers jobs might be considered to be one wherein conditions may vary considerably dependent on location. And the best might not get the jobs, as some of that contingent might elect to move onto other fields where the costs of their education might be better reconciled. Or at least they think can be reconciled. Several former teachers and profs of my acquaintance have tried to move into law degrees...</p>
<p>Moving away, also a problem. In part because those people are assets lost to the community. But it's increasingly common. Until the recent global economic crash, a sizable number of qualified people of my generation have moved clear out of the US. </p>
<p>And quite true about most teachers not teaching in reservations and barrios. I used that example to illustrate how limited teachers loan forgiveness programs actually are, and how limited the actual effect. </p>
<p>Teachers being underpaid is a relative condition, as is professorial pay. But as you noted "
I believe that college costs have gotten out of hand, and the student loan industry has been the enabler, and that should be fixed". </p>
<p>And that situation is increasingly making the education needed for any professional job increasingly a condition which cannot be economically or ethically rationalized. Teachers are not the only people caught in educationally propagated economic vise, others are affected but get less publicity.</p>
<p>I expect the next group to begin to be really hammered by this issue is the medical services crew (nurses and equipment operators). The docs have already been adversely affected as was made very obvious by the AMA begging the USDOE for policy changes in regards to MD's educational loans. Of course nothing was done about their particular plea...</p>
<p>Atana, I dont know what you mean by trapped. HS teachers need a degree in their subject, and as you said, any major can apply to law school. Yes teaching, like all jobs, generally depend on location. Yes, new grads right now all over are having a tough time. But where I live, most people would be hard pressed to consider them underpaid.</p>
<p>A civil professional area that I see going under in short order are those that practice law in the prosecutors' offices around this country. Staggering under enormous debt loads from law school, and beginning salaries hovering below 40K, it is an untenable situation. States that are tinkering on economic collapse, just won't be able to pay more and have already frozen hiring in states such as Florida. As existing prosecutors move on to face their loan nightmares, there will be no replacements. This at a time when all types of crime will be increasing. The remaining prosecutors, investigators, etc, will have larger workloads placed upon them and they will either move on, or do less than is required and the cases will pile up being unattended to. </p>
<p>The supervisor I was supposed to work for, where I could be offered no more than $36,868 with 11 years experience in the exact position I had held(they had to lobby the Budget Office in Tallahassee to get the position re-opened when they learned I was ready to return), has over <em>100</em> fraud cases to be investigated and the department consists of him and a college grad with no experience (this is down from a department of 4 in 2000). When I left in 2000, I had an average of <em>10</em> cases at any given time. </p>
<p>I didn't take the job partly because I can earn $63k a year <em>temping</em> for now, although I'm in love with the idea of service. Those cases are going to keep backing up with many being lost to the statute of limitations as there is a small window in fraud to file. And, this at a time when economic crime has exploded. The computer fraud training I received at the FBI Academy (this was additional education that the State of Florida arranged for me to receive) will no doubt be put to use by a defense attorney at a future date. I have no doubt I'll end up earning over $100K when I find my niche, but is this really good for anyone?</p>
<p>Mattsmom, in your earlier post you compared average TEACHER salaries with average FAMILY or HOUSEHOLD income in Cherry Hill. Many families where I live have more than one adult working. As does your household as I recall.</p>
<p>^^^No, we have only one adult working in our household for the years 2000-2008. I have a daughter that has health issues (Ehlers Danlos Syndrome) which required me to stay at home. We purchased a plant nursery in 2004 in an attempt to bring in extra income so I could work from home and we did exceedingly well up till 2006. The business is no longer profitable and I am just beginning to consider temp work. My daughter is now almost 17 and suffers less frequent attacks (and has the maturity and experience to know how to cope with them) and can be home on her own when need be.</p>
<p>As for comparing teacher to family income, that was not what I was doing at all. You said teachers were paid quite well in the upper middle class neighborhoods such as your own in the NE. In fact you claimed they made $100K on average. I found that, at least in Cherry Hill, NJ (a state where teachers are known to be paid much higher than average) they made quite less. You then answered that Cherry Hill was not an example of a wealthy suburban community as it was in Camden (?) County. I provided numbers to show they are.</p>
<p>In absence of not knowing where you live, I am unable to prove that teachers do not in fact make an average of $100k. I am still awaiting your evidence of this.</p>
<p>Mattsmom, </p>
<p>I did not say teachers make that on average. Tha would be an experienced teacher. <a href="http://www.whiteplainspublicschools.org/41129172710435/lib/41129172710435/WPPS_2007-08_Teacher_Pay_Scale.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.whiteplainspublicschools.org/41129172710435/lib/41129172710435/WPPS_2007-08_Teacher_Pay_Scale.pdf</a></p>
<p>Above is a link to a district near me (but less affluant area) -- I cant find mine. They do make more starting than you would give credit for. They START at 50K. </p>
<p>Mattsmom, I am willing to conced that teachers on reservations dont make much.</p>