Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
301

<p>I went and poked around the learning disabilities part of the website and I realized that my experiences with my public school system have been very different from other school systems. Let me start out by saying that I went to and above average public school district, but it was by no means a “top” public school system. The school phycologist would test people frequently and recommend that they receive IEPs. Teachers would see issues and recommend that the student was tested. I now realize that this is essentially unheard of in public schools. I think they did a good job of putting people who needed help in special ed. I was put into special ed in second grade. However I probably would have been put into special ed anywhere seeing as though I could not read at the time.</p>

<p>On the flip side of that, amongst many people at my high school there was a stigma associated with the special ed department. I had many instances where I was in a conversation and people would start complaining about the special ed not knowing that I was Learning Disabled. So I generally didn’t tell people until they already knew me so that it did not affect their perception of me.</p>

<p>Ironically people at Stanford the people I have told have not had the same view on learning disabilities that people at my high school had. People think it is interesting more than anything else (or at least if they do have a negative view on it the are too PC to say anything else).</p>

302

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>I’m a full time college student(Computer Science) with a learning disabilities. But I have never got more time to take a test in high school or college. The only thing I had to do was study more at night and not go and run the roads.</p>

<p>Right I have a GPA 3.5 which is not the best but is good.</p>

<p>But now some people with learning disabilities do need more time. But you have to draw a line somewhere.</p>

303

<p>"<br>
I would guess that this student must be in dire straits at Princeton academically right now, maybe on the verge of flunking out. Otherwise, I can’t imagine anyone wanting to color their college experience with a lawsuit against their own alma mater. "</p>

<p>I dunno, I have a 3.4 at Michigan at the moment-- an above average GPA for my college within the university-- and as I have explained, I am contemplating a lawsuit if all other avenues don’t work. Your assumptions really aren’t helping anybody nor are they contributing to the discussion.</p>

304

<p>Twisted, the point is that you are contemplating a lawsuit <em>if all other avenues don’t work.</em> You HAVE a GPA. You have tried to work with them. As far as anyone can tell, this student leapt directly to a lawsuit before even attempting to take a single midterm with the accommodations she had been given so far.</p>

<p>That is why someone might think that she was on the ragged edge already. It is pure speculation, though.</p>

305

<p>As far as anyone can guess, which means nothing. My 3.4 is self calculated, I have no Michigan grades on my transcript yet, but I happened to have had a run in with the ADA in my first semester.</p>

<p>I’ve spoken to the girl in question, she is going through hell because of the speculation, and some of you are REALLY pushing it. There are definitely flaws in the case from what we can tell that are certainly fair game to discuss-- with the understanding that we may not have correct information being given to us, but beginning to speculate that clearly she must be failing hall her classes is going too far. You’re not going to treat a person, an 18 year old no less, like that without anybody saying anything.</p>

306

<p>

</p>

<p>Exactly. Even the judge in the case denied her preliminary injunction, thus requiring her to take her midterms without the additional accommodation.</p>

<p>My real point was that filing a lawsuit should be a last resort; the animosity it can cause and likely has already caused on both sides can be life altering, traumatic and lifelong. It is a shame that this 18-year-old, if and when she receives her degree from Princeton will forever know that either she had to pry it out of the school via an expensive lawsuit and bad publicity, or, if she loses, she must live with the idea that Princeton did not care enough about her needs to voluntarily accommodate her and she forced them unnecessarily to expend funds to defend the suit during trying economic times.</p>

<p>That is why I assumed she must be in an academically precarious predicament if she chose to go forward with the suit without even trying the offered accommodations first.</p>

<p>I could be totally wrong of course, too. Maybe she doesn’t care at all about how the lawsuit impacts her feelings about her alma mater.</p>

307

<p>Twisted, there’s an excellent brochure Frostig Center called “Life Success for Children with Disabilities” that is based on research of successful adults with LD, looking at the qualities that allowed them to succeed. You can find this at [Life</a> Success for Children with Learning Disabilities.](<a href=“http://www.ldsuccess.org/]Life”>http://www.ldsuccess.org/) – it is free to download. I think some of the information about taking personal responsibility on this page – [url=<a href=“http://www.ldsuccess.org/parent_guide/what_are/proactivity.html]Proactivity[/url”>http://www.ldsuccess.org/parent_guide/what_are/proactivity.html]Proactivity[/url</a>] – is very helpful. </p>

<p>I think that sometimes people get so caught up in fighting for their legal rights that they end up focused on the battle and losing the war. </p>

<p>As a former lawyer – and litigator – I think that any person who has to file a lawsuit to get what they want is already on a losing path. They may win their lawsuit – but they are “winning” only by giving up their personal control and decision-making ability to others (lawyers and judges). And there ALWAYS is a huge cost, both emotional and financial. And, there is a high likelihood that a plaintiff in an action will lose. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that in a courtroom, the burden of proof is always on the plaintiff – so what the Princeton plaintiff has done, legally, is shifted the story from “I think I need these accommodations to do well and I am hoping that Princeton will see things my way and give me this support” … to “I am ready able to prove by a preponderance of legally-admissible evidence that I absolutely need this specific accommodation, and that Princeton has violated the law by refusing it to me.” No wonder Princeton’s lawyers are confident. They DID offer a set of accommodations which the plaintiff refused – so they already look “reasonable” – and it up to the plaintiff to prove somehow that they are not. (Among other things the plaintiff is now in an untenable position of needing to flunk her first set of mid-terms in order to bolster her case). </p>

<p>If she loses her case in court – she’s got nothing. She’s just given Princeton even more control over the system – they’ve won the case, they can do what they please. So it definitely is a riskly avenue to pursue whenever a one person is suing some other person or agency with whom they intend to have a continuing relationship. such as tenant-landlord, employee-employer – or student-school administration. I used to represent a lot of people in that sort of relationship where they had grievances, and my advice was always that they shouldn’t initiate a lawsuit unless they intended to also break out of that relationship (such as quitting their job or moving out of their apartment). Why? Because once you have set yourself up as an adversary to your landlord or your employer – or your school administrator – the litigation process is likely to cause irreparable harm to the relationship. You’ve thrown down the gauntlet and, win or lose, you will always have difficulty coming to terms on any issue that arises in the future. </p>

<p>In contrast, as long as a person in a process of working within the system available to them, being assertive and proactive but also flexible and open to compromise, that person retains a greater measure of control over their lives. They may not get exactly what they want, but they remain a participant and they haven’t burnt any bridges – and there is always room for further progress. </p>

<p>Of course there are circumstances that justify litigation-- but I am very glad that I used my negotiation skills when helping my dyslexic son and not my litigation skills, and I’m glad that he grew up to be the kind of person described in that Frostig Center report. That means sometimes he got the support he wanted – and more – and sometimes he didn’t. But he did become a very effective advocate for himself. </p>

<p>Of course we don’t know the facts of this situation – but the plaintiff is the one who has thrown this open to discussion over the internet. When you file a lawsuit and issue a press release, that’s what happens. (And I’m pretty sure that the “press release” part did happen – otherwise, how would the press have found out to even report the story?)</p>

308

<p>I am familiar with landlord-tenant law too, as a landlord. I’ve had so many tenants move out of a place earlier than our contract, then they believe(or pretend to believe) the agreement is automatically off because they moved out. Sometimes we’ve reached a compromise, but if not, then I am forced to take them to court. So many times these people just don’t grasp how such a public thing affects them. Any judgment against them is put in the newspaper, and sent to the credit bureaus. Future employers, lenders, all that see their credit history see the negative marks. Plus, their friends, family, co-workers all see it too. I even remember one young woman fired from her job because her employer didn’t want to garnish her wages as ordered by the court. Employers have that option in Ohio. This isn’t a LL-tenant case, but the principles apply. It is a very public record and suing at this point is premature and risky. I have turned down prospective tenants that have animal cruelty on their record- even though I don’t permit pets. A public record can have negative consequences.</p>

<p>Like Calmom, I always urge these breaching tenants to seek a compromise and avoid court. Court is my last resort. I’d add to Bay’s comments(post 306) that if she loses this case the public perception will be that she tried to sue for more than she was entitled to. That is a consequence, too.
If this young woman is making all A’s so far, what would there be to sue about? Logic would dictate she is struggling, or fears she will be. I think it germain that she has refused accommodations already offered, and is suing for more, all before she has mid-term grades. I agree it will be hard to argue that P has been unreasonable. There is a legal phrase for that Calmom could help me with, is it “anticipatory damages” or something like that? The idea that you can sue today for what you guess may possibly become damages in the future? And true that they are rarely granted?</p>

<p>As for TwistedX and his 3.4 “an above average GPA for my college within the university–” He’d have a hard time convincing me he was treated unfairly to the point of his U breaking the law if I was on the jury. He’s already doing better than the average student without an LD, and yet he’s disadvantaged?</p>

309

<p>Yet another assumption, younghoss. My GPA is fine because I have not yet taken classes in the department that refuses to accommodate disabilities, which I must begin doing in January-- any delay whatsoever means paying 10k+ on additional semesters of school, as I explained earlier. The classes I have taken thus far have been accommodated perfectly well and as such I’ve done pretty decently. So yeah, as long as the romance languages department flatly refuses to provide any accommodations whatosever-- which is illegal, I am disadvantaged. I know you’re hesitant to accept that, but that’s how it is.</p>

310

<p>What is my assumption, Twisted? You told us your gpa now. You told us how it compares to others now. I made comments about if I were a juror now, hearing your case about your 3.4.
Certainly if your circumstances change, then feelings about it may change. But I didn’t address that.</p>

<p>What was my assumption?
If I was wrong about what you said please let me know. If I was right, please let me know.</p>

311

<p>Not to hijack this thread but Twisted I really hope you can reach a compromise that you can live with at UofM. These situations just touch me. My youngest high school son is beating himself up right now and has been for a couple days…He got all As and a B- in his English class. He had this goal of all As and while I tried to poo poo it, it’s just the way he’s wired. He just couldn’t keep up with the reading and when he did finish the books he wasn’t retaining very well. He knows about Sparknotes but… If he has the time to read at his speed his comphrehension is great. He studied/read/etc. so many hours every night and I am proud of him. He earned that B- with no accomodations. He told me he went to the guidance office Monday and dropped Econ in favor of a study hall next quarter. He said he just needs another hour in the day to “keep up” but he’s been really hard on himself about the report card he’s getting next week. I’m so darn proud of him I could burst but I still can’t “fix” him. That 3.4 is really good for your first semester there and whatever you work out with the school do not beat yourself up over that 3.4.</p>

312

<p>Younghoss, I think the phrase you are looking for is “anticipatory breach” and it applies mostly in situations where there is an ongoing contractual relationship, particularly landlord-tenant. Basically one side to the contract can see that the other is about to violate the contract and so starts a suit before that happens – but it is hard to prove. Wikipedia provides this explanation:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>(I don’t usually cite Wikipedia, but I think this is a pretty good explanation).</p>

<p>It really doesn’t apply to the situation concerning the Princeton plaintiff, however, because its not a situation of a contract requiring specific performance.</p>

313

<p>Twisted, if the romance language department at your school totally REFUSES to provide accommodations, that is a different issue than if they offered X accommodations any you want X+Y. You would be in a somewhat better position in litigation, because you could presumably show that from the documentation of your disabilities that you are entitled to reasonable accommodations, and they aren’t offering ANY. By definition, giving you Zero when you are clearly entitled to something, can’t be “reasonable.”</p>

<p>The Princeton situation is very different because they DID offer accommodations – but the Plaintiff wants more. She may well be right, but it is going to be much harder to prove that what Princeton offered is not “reasonable.” </p>

<p>I’m sorry that the language department is so hard for you to work with. I think that this is where it is very important for students to very carefully scrutinize academic requirements when they are choosing a college or major – there are many colleges in the US that do not have a foreign language requirement, or allow language requirements to be fulfilled with an alternative such as classes focused on the culture of a foreign country. (Same with math requirements – there are schools that have none and schools that allow them to be filled with courses that require very little, if any, actual math). </p>

<p>My son was able to get some requirements for his major waived by finding the documentation from his department as to WHY the particular requirements existed, and then writing a very well reasoned petition explaining how his proposed alternative filled that purpose of the major. (In this example, he was not seeking accommodations – he was a transfer student and wanted some intro-level courses waived, so that he could focus more on advanced level courses – but the point is, he did enough research to figure out the reasons behind the policy, and then arranged a waiver by putting forth an argument that fully addressed those reasons.)</p>

<p>Very often when an agency says “no” to something they are afraid of the slippery-slope scenario – if they let one person have something, then everyone will want it – so you need to frame your argument in a way that assuages that concern.</p>

314

<p>I am not trying to say my situation and Diane’s are the same. But one cannot reasonably infer just from the information given that Diane is on the verge of flunking out-- as per my example, I am in my first semester at Michigan and am also in a position to consider legal action, and as of this moment my academics are fine-- when I start Spanish next semester I may be in trouble, but still not on the verge of flunking out. And I have never meant to say that the lawsuit at hand is a perfectly cut and dry case in favor of the student, either, simply that some of the comments and inferences here are completely ridiculous and needlessly hurtful. And there are times when, yes, a student DOES need to consider legal action-- even in the first semester.</p>

<p>As for me, thankfully my academic adviser is on my side and really doing some digging to help me come up with alternative avenues to take first, but if they don’t work I am pretty much screwed. As I think I’ve mentioned, at the moment I am petitioning the academic standards board to either get some sort of a cultural substitution or the accommodations I require for Spanish. If that doesn’t work, I don’t know what will happen. </p>

<p>As for it being a matter of selecting the right college or major, I completed 3 semesters of Spanish at my first college with no problems even with VERY minimal accommodation (only a laptop for my neuropathy) simply because the curriculum was not such that my disabilities were even relevant. I had no idea what I was walking into here with language, but knew full well that I have the math level of an 11 year old and picked the school and major best for that-- at Michigan a poli sci major need not take any math classes so long as they find a different class to satisfy the quantitative reasoning requirement, which is pretty easily done. I NEEDED that or there was no point in going to college at all.</p>

315

<p>

</p>

<p>Au contraire, whenever a lawsuit is filed, if the plaintiff has good counsel, it is reasonable to presume that the plaintiff has exhausted all other remedial alternatives and has something crucial at stake or irreparable damage is about to occur.</p>

<p>This is not always the case, and perhaps may not be in this case, but it is certainly <em>reasonable</em> to presume that the plaintiff did not expect to do well on her midterms, otherwise, why file the suit and seek a preliminary injunction?</p>

316

<p>Posts 306 and 307 sort of echo or complete the thought that I was implying earlier, and another poster was as well. What kind of Pyrrhic victory may result - not only from the U’s point of view (trade-offs for special consideration admissions), but also from the p.o.v. of the student. I am an advocate for LD rights, but I am also a realist about the environments. Not all those environments are equally suitable, depending on the type, degree of LD, not to mention the expectations of the institution and peer groups within it. If one is a recruitable athlete – or for that matter has an equally special hook – but also has significant, complex LD, the student, not just the U, has to weigh the cost of choosing one over the other. Perhaps there would have been U’s which would have recruited her but where the accommodations combined with expectations would be more within her range of success.</p>

317

<p>

Actually, in order to state a claim for an injunctive, the plaintiff legally had to allege that without accommodations, she would fail the exams -and that had to be in the form of a verified complaint (that is, a statement signed under penalty of perjury).</p>

<p>To get an injunction, a plaintiff needs to demonstrate 2 things:

  1. That there is a high likelihood they will win their case, and
  2. That if the court does not issue the injunction, the plaintiff will suffer “irreparable harm”.</p>

<p>It is particularly difficult to get an injunction forcing a defendant do something affirmative, as opposed to an injunction that prevents them from doing something-- the law favors preservation of the status quo. So, for example, if the plaintiff were about to be expelled from Princeton based on poor grades – then she might have a better case to enjoin that action and allow her to continue in school pending outcome of her. </p>

<p>It is hard to see how the plaintiff could claim “irreparable harm” without an assertion that she would be unable to pass the exams without the extra time. So simply as a matter of making out her case, the plaintiff really has to have alleged that she would be in deep trouble academically without the specific accommodations she seeks.</p>

318

<p>Once again, Calmom that makes perfect sense, explaining the liklihood that student is likely to be struggling academically. If the student thought she was getting all A’s she probably wouldn’t be suing, but since she is, it is reasonable to believe she is struggling.</p>

<p>Nice to hear Epiphany remind us of what I said some time ago; that this student and her family may have been so excited by the athletic appeal that they didn’t carefully check out if she was an academic match. Many disagreed with me earlier, believing that once she was accepted, P had obligation to do any/all necessary to make student succeed.</p>

<p>Still waiting for my response, TwistedX from the question posed to you in 310. You imply I may have made a wrong assumption about you and your grades.
If I was wrong let me know
If I was right let me know.</p>

319

<p>

</p>

<p>How much more Spanish do you need then? </p>

<p>Also are you allowed to enroll as a transient student at a community college during the summers or something to knock what little Spanish you have left out of the way? </p>

<p>Or is the fact that you already have some Spanish classes under your belt working against you with a thing or two?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Where did you speak with her? I hope she is doing well.</p>

320

<p>

</p>

<p>I need three more now because I placed into the second class of four on the placement test, they do not allow you to complete the requirement out of residence-- your only option is to test at the fourth semester proficiency or start wherever they place you and finish the fourth semester. I tried to switch to Latin so the hearing issue wouldn’t even be relevant, but second semester Latin isn’t offered over the spring or summer and the department would not approve me taking a language course of out residence for the requirement, so that’s a no go. They also won’t let me retake the test under any circumstances. If I had known the format of the test I might have requested accommodations the first time, I had no idea it was going to be a problem until then-- I’ve never NOT been allowed to lip read before and I didn’t know the entire test would be listening to a recording (that didn’t match up with the test, so that screwed me up even more). That’s my fault, though I don’t know what I could have done to avoid it, so now I just have to work with what I’ve got. </p>

<p>The fact that I already have Spanish under my belt is definitely hurting me, though, because I basically need to prove I’m incapable of learning a foreign language-- which obviously is not true. I just can’t do so unaccommodated. So I need to get a letter from my former teacher basically stating that her curriculum is less rigorous, even though it technically isn’t. So I don’t really see this going very well, but I am trying. The best part is now I have to pay to take summer classes at another 4 year to replace the 8 credits of Spanish I have to lose by retaking courses I already got transfer credit for. Ugh.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I talked to her on facebook. She could probably be doing better. The negativity I found here prompted me to survey Michigan students’ attitudes toward students with LD, which was slightly but not much better than here, so all this inspired me to start a student org at Michigan for wolverines with LDs-- to promote awareness and advocacy, and to provide an understanding community. I am in contact with other universities across the state of Michigan and they are waiting to hear from me about a state-wide awareness project that we will collaborate on together. I expressed my support and understanding to Diane’s situation and let her know that what she is doing, whether she wins the case or not, will pave the way for others to stand up for themselves-- and that she inspired me to do this. So hopefully she takes some strength from what she has already accomplished. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You said…</p>

<p>“As for TwistedX and his 3.4 “an above average GPA for my college within the university–” He’d have a hard time convincing me he was treated unfairly to the point of his U breaking the law if I was on the jury. He’s already doing better than the average student without an LD, and yet he’s disadvantaged?”</p>

<p>I’m doing better than the average student without an LD because I am not taking any of the courses my LD affects-- math and foreign language are it. You tried to use my GPA to suggest that I am not disadvantaged-- you’re right, in all classes except math and foreign language I am not disadvantaged outside of my physical disability. The romance languages department’s refusal to accommodate disabilities is indisputeably illegal, and irrelevant to my academic performance thus far as I have not taken any classes in the romance languages department yet. You assumed you could use my gpa to make conclusions about my level of disadvantagedness and whether or not the U is doing anything illegal, and you were wrong.</p>