<p>So, isn't it wrong to say that basically if you go to a liberal arts school like Swarthmore or Reed or Grinnell, that if you don't go to graduate school you won't be able to find any 'real' job right out of college? That was part of the opposition I heard as I was thinking about liberal arts: the idea that out of college you should be able to find a well-paying job that you'd enjoy doing.</p>
<p>Going to Swarthmore, even though its career services may be poor, shouldn't have an immediate impact on the first job, I don't think. But it's hard to say anything about liberal arts colleges and jobs with confidence because I'm only 17 and haven't been to college and have only had one job.</p>
<p>That's one of the main complaints I heard on **************.com about certain colleges. A lot of people said, basically, "My experience at Reed wasn't worth all the money, because nobody in the work world cares about whether you've read the Iliad." First, that person shouldn't have applied to Reed in the first place; he should have known what he was getting himself into. Second, isn't reading the Iliad and much of education mainly to make you a better person? I've never heard of a college have its mission statement be to prepare people for jobs. I have, however, heard of colleges having its goal be to produce citizens capable of effecting positive change in society--not necessarily related to a high-paying job. </p>
<p>I mainly want to know if the name of a college carries any weight in the work force, but that probably belongs in another forum and it's probably been debated ad nauseam.</p>
<p>Yes, name brand recognition does carry weight in the work force. In general, Harvard has a lot more workplace clout that Swarthmore. So do the rest of the Ivies. Far more companies recruit on Ivy league campuses than at Swarthmore. But, there is a question of whether this is even the right way to think about it. Economically, is it worth it to go to a high-end, elite school in hopes that it will secure you a better job? This</a> article says it's not. You should have reasons beyond a high salary in your future for going to a prestigious school because, if that's your only reason, it's probably not worth the extra effort and cost.</p>
<p>Contrary to what many liberal arts colleges imply, a liberal education was not originally designed to provide graduating seniors well-paying interesting jobs. A liberal education was designed to ... make you an educated person. In the 40s and 50s this turned out to be generally a good screening device for people who would make good white collar managerial track employees. Partly because there were relatively few college graduates.</p>
<p>Today, however, there are lots and lots of college graduates. So having any old college degree is not necessarily a winning ticket in the lottery for a well-paying interesting job. This is a difficult thing for the liberal arts colleges to deal with, in part, because a liberal arts college with low student-faculty ratio is inherently a very expensive proposition. It is a luxury good. How can they justify charging such a high price (driven by high costs), if it doesn't "guarantee" a great well-paying job?</p>
<p>Liberal arts colleges like Swarthmore make a very good argument that the benefits of a rigorous, well rounded liberal arts education will prove valuable over the course of a career. The conventional wisdom in the labor force is that workers will have 4 or 5 different careers in the course of a working life. They will have to learn entirely new things well into their 50s and even 60s. The ways of thinking and learning to learn cultivated in a liberal arts education can be very valuable in this regard.</p>
<p>But if the primary intent is go get a well-paying job right out of college/university, you are better advised to get a professional 4-year degree in a field like engineering or accounting at your local flagship state university. The job market for a ChemE graduate from Texas A&M will almost always provide a better starting salary than for a BA in Art History, even from a school like Swarthmore or even Harvard.</p>
<p>As A.E. points out, there is some interesting research that implies that the college or university you go to has very little to do with your long-run earnings. So the decision to go to a school like Swarthmore should not be driven by a purely monetary return-on-investment calculation.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I am very grateful that I was able to attend Swarthmore, where I graduated more than 30 years ago. I have worked in 5 different companies in 4 different cities in 4 different industries over my career to date. I think that my Swarthmore undergraduate education not only prepared me very well for graduate school, but also prepared me well for learning and relearning on the job. And I have a network of fellow alums, many of whom have done truly amazing things.</p>
<p>Oh good. I mean, I mainly want to go to a liberal arts school because I think that it will provide the best environment for me to learn, and I want to go to college to learn. But I also don't want to end up working in a job I don't want. My primary intent in higher education isn't to get a well-paying job right out of college, but I don't want to have the fact that I attended a lesser-known school prevent me from having an enjoyable job afterwards.</p>
<p>I think I can definitively say that attending a lesser-known school like Swarthmore will not prevent you from having an enjoyable job after college.</p>
<p>I have a happy sophomore at Swarthmore. She picked the school based on gut feeling during RTT--she also visited some other schools on admitted students weekends--and has not regretted it so far. She went to a high school that had a reputation for being difficult with loads of work but it turned out to be quite manageable and we always wonder what others were complaining about! From my perspective Swarthmore experience is quite similar. She has to work hard but she is enjoying most of the classes, gets respectable grades, has lots of friends, is involved in ECs and overall seems to be having the ideal college experience so far. She also has a nice internship lined up for the summer. One simply needs to be proactive about this--use the externship opportunity offered by the career services--it can lead to interesting opportunities for the summer!</p>
<p>In picking a college trying to evaluate how helpful the college's career services office makes sense as one criterion. Unfortunately, I don't know of good data comparing the helpfulness of various college's career services offices. I do know that Swarthmore's career services office provides far more in the way of help than it did 30+ years ago. The same is true, I'm sure, of the career services offices of virtually all colleges.</p>
<p>I don't know how meaningful a list of the plans of graduates really is. I'd much rather see a list of the starting salaries of Swarthmore graduates compared to the starting salaries of graduates from other elite institutions. Obviously, this would only apply to those who weren't immediately going to graduate school.</p>
<p>economics, bio and poli-sci seem to be the most prolific fields, in terms of employment right after graduation. I'm surprised at the comparatively small showing for computer science. Have tech jobs lost their allure finally?</p>
<p>"I'd much rather see a list of the starting salaries of Swarthmore graduates compared to the starting salaries of graduates from other elite institutions. Obviously, this would only apply to those who weren't immediately going to graduate school."</p>
<p>I have noticed in the alumni magazine news that although many Swarthmore grads do go into law, finance, medicine etc, there seem to be many that choose more public service fields, or teaching, rather than the highest paying fields. </p>
<p>I do think that much of this is self-selective, and that they could go into the higher paying fields if they wanted to. I know that this is true of my child who is currently attending Swarthmore. Both of my children are equally bright, but one is going into a very high-paying field, and the Swat student is not that driven by salary.</p>
<p>That is why I think the starting salaries of the grads of Swarthmore vs Wharton and some other schools are not applicable. Of course the Wharton undergraduates who primarily go into finance or other business fields are going to overall make a lot more money right after graduation, except the few who decide to go into public service. But not everyone wants to trade stocks and bonds, and I am sure that is true more at Swarthmore than Wharton!</p>
<p>Prospective students need to understand what they are getting into. Should you decide that Swarthmore is the wrong place for you, it is very difficult to transfer. We base this on our d's experience. First, students have little understanding of where they fall academically after the first semester because of Swarthmore's pass/fail first semester. Even if the student does not perform as well as hoped, the student can always rationalize those first semester shadow grades as - perhaps he/she would have worked harder had it not been pass/fail. So students get their first "real" indication of where they fall at the end of spring semester freshman year - too late to transfer for sophomore year. Parents are not even invited to a parents' weekend until spring of freshman year - after most transfer deadlines - is there a reason for this? So the student returns fall sophomore year with renewed determination to perform well academically. My point is that by the time many students realize that Swarthmore may not be the best fit, it is too late to transfer - the Swarthmore grades will not get them where they want to be. Our d understands that Swarthmore was probably not the best match for her but is trying to make the most of her time there. I think it is difficult for us as a family to know how much we are paying for this product and, I have to agree with AE, it is not the product we all thought we were purchasing. So when people are referencing college retention rates, please be aware that the rates may not reflect students who would like to transfer and cannot.</p>
<p>Regarding career services - I agree that they are not helpful. D has been visiting the career services office since freshman year - has applied for the externships and never been selected. She started early this year (junior year) to talk with career services about possible summer internships - again, very little advice or help. D thankfully has lined up a summer internship thanks to her own research and hard work. Do I expect career services to hold my d's hand? No. But it does seem that more attention goes to the students who are interested in public policy, teaching, and pursuing PhD programs.</p>
<p>Would our d choose Swarthmore again? I don't know. We will have to see how she feels once she has graduated and been out for a few years. It's easy to have this great perspective from a retrospective viewpoint. I can say that, based on our family's experience, we would not (and will not) choose Swarthmore again (three more children to send to college). We will be sending our s to a competing LAC this next year and hope to be happier with the overall experience.</p>
<p>I am sorry to hear that your d's experience at Swarthmore has not been all that she and you had hoped for. Without exposing too much info you'd rather keep private, I think it would help applicants and their families if you could elaborate on what has been less than expected for her. What was not as advertised in the college's official publications, and what was not as expected from other sources of information, like guidebooks, College Confidential, etc.?</p>
<p>I am happy to reveal my biases - I'm a Swarthmore alum with one kid who has graduated from Swarthmore and one who is a current student. I am a big fan of Liberal Arts Colleges in general and Swarthmore in particular. But I will certainly admit that Swarthmore is not for everyone, and that it is perhaps a better fit for those who think they might want to go on to graduate school or do public policy work, for example.</p>
<p>I think everyone's perspective deserves to be heard on important choices like college selection. A.E., for example has explained in detail his/her particular complaints. Specific areas where your d found Swarthmore lacking and/or not up to expectations would help others in thinking about the college versus their other choices.</p>
<p>I don't know that I can honestly say that Swarthmore has failed us - it may be that my husband and I had unrealistic expectations of Swarthmore. We are both from very middle class backgrounds, d was our first child heading off to college, and we probably put too much stock in the rankings. When reading the guidebooks, college literature, and visiting the campus, Swarthmore seemed a good fit for our d (husband and I were not exposed to College Confidential until after admission). She did an overnighter, attended classes, and enjoyed the experience much more than other colleges we visited. I think much of the "disenchantment" we have experienced is our own responsibility in that perhaps our d did not know herself well enough to make that commitment - in short, our family should have been researching more and trusting to rankings less.</p>
<p>Issues for us - again, we should have been aware of much of this had we done our research:</p>
<ol>
<li> When Swarthmore says "anywhere else it would have been an A" they really mean it. We laughed about it when our d was applying; was not as amusing when she was experiencing it.</li>
<li> Advising has not been helpful. D has learned much from older students, peers, her own research, and discussing things with us.</li>
<li> Career services also unhelpful - please see my last post. D is a project-oriented person and is looking for more of a practical approach than career services seems to be able to provide. From snippets my d has shared, students seem to be finding most opportunities on their own - which is not a terrible thing - just something to be aware of.</li>
<li> Husband and I were unaware of pass/fail first semester and, even after learning about it, did not understand the implications for a possible transfer from Swarthmore. We do not believe our d benefitted from this policy and will not support a school endorsing this policy.</li>
<li> We would have liked to see a parent/family weekend scheduled before the transfer deadline.</li>
<li> Financial aid office not very open to processing loans from lenders other than college "preferred lenders".</li>
<li> D not happy with some classes/teachers - again, based on where Swarthmore ranks, we probably had unrealistic expectations.</li>
<li> Not as easy to take classes at Penn, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr as expected.</li>
<li> Would like to see Swarthmore use some of endowment towards: entry security cards for dorms (what other colleges at this price point do not have card access?); construction of student center; other venues (why is there always a huge discussion about where to hold the annual Halloween party?); monitoring for students taken to health center (current policy is for "friends" to stay and monitor inebriated students - how safe is this?)</li>
<li> D is currently at peace with not meeting many men on campus but would have preferred to know this before committing - again, we should have done more research.</li>
</ol>
<p>As I look back on this process, I would have to say that my advice to prospective students applies to all colleges, not just Swarthmore. Do more than read guidebooks, visit, etc. - talk to current students and alumni to ensure that the college is a good fit for you. Also, know yourself and what you are looking for; pick your college by fit and not prestige or rankings.</p>
<p>Your last paragraph is very good advice to prospective students at any college!</p>
<p>I hope your D will look back at her Swarthmore experience in a few years and appreciate the pluses as well as the minuses. Good luck to her in her last year+, and good luck to your other kids as they find their way to college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
4. Husband and I were unaware of pass/fail first semester and, even after learning about it, did not understand the implications for a possible transfer from Swarthmore. We do not believe our d benefitted from this policy and will not support a school endorsing this policy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think the pass-fail first semester implemented by Swarthmore and MIT is one of the best policies any rigorous college could offer. I would steer clear of colleges that don't have a pass/fail first semester as a way of transitioning from high school academics to a much higher level of expectation.</p>
<p>The second best policy at Swarthmore is housing first-year students with upperclass students so that they can get the kind of informal academic advising that is so useful.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what Parents Weekend has to do with transferring. These are two completely independent things. There is nothing at Parents Weekend that would help decide to transfer or not transfer. </p>
<p>Parents Weekend is in the spring at Swarthmore because that's when all the gardens are in bloom...a great time of year to visit campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
4. Husband and I were unaware of pass/fail first semester and, even after learning about it, did not understand the implications for a possible transfer from Swarthmore. We do not believe our d benefitted from this policy and will not support a school endorsing this policy.
5. We would have liked to see a parent/family weekend scheduled before the transfer deadline.
[/quote]
Very interesting. I had never even considered how these things may affect Swarthmore's retention numbers. I don't think the pass/fail semester or parents' weekend timing were engineered to produce a higher retention rate, but I can see how they have led to that happening over the years by increasing the logistical difficulty of transferring out of Swarthmore.</p>
<p>
[quote]
9. monitoring for students taken to health center (current policy is for "friends" to stay and monitor inebriated students - how safe is this?)
[/quote]
Who better to know how to monitor an inebriated student than a student who was inebriated last weekend and needed monitoring? But, seriously, I would trust my friends (and, in fact, did, several times) for something like this. Plus, it leads to some funny stories that you can get a lot of mileage out of on down the road.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As I look back on this process, I would have to say that my advice to prospective students applies to all colleges, not just Swarthmore. Do more than read guidebooks, visit, etc. - talk to current students and alumni to ensure that the college is a good fit for you. Also, know yourself and what you are looking for; pick your college by fit and not prestige or rankings.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>One thing a lot of people do is make college out to be a bigger deal than it is. This always leads to at least a little disappointment. The rankings are a lot of hype and the institution of higher learning is itself over-hyped. In many ways, it's just a four year summer camp (with worse food than summer camp, somehow).</p>