<p>I am proud for America and feel bad for American students all at once. :) </p>
<p>Can someone who's familiar with British education system comment on Oxford's "elitism, class and regional prejudice"?
[quote]
For decades U.S. colleges simply were not on British students radar. That began to change in 2000, with Oxford Universitys decision not to admit Laura Spence, a straight-A graduate from a state-funded high school in the north of England. While Britain debated elitism, class and regional prejudice, Ms. Spence took up a full scholarship to Harvard instead.
<p>The Laura Spence Affair ended well for Laura. Thanks to Harvard’s FINANCIAL AID , she graduated and went back to Cambridge to earn a degree in Medicine. </p>
<p>What is hardly unusual In the US made headlines in the UK from 2000 to 2009.</p>
<p>But you can only apply to Oxford or Cambridge, not both. And because the admission is mostly focussed on exam grades, you have a better idea whether it is worth applying or not.</p>
<p>The whole Laura Spence thing is ridiculous because she didn’t actually meet the Oxford admissions requirements for undergraduate medicine. I believe she did something like A-level Biology, Chemistry, English and French (I may be wrong but two arts and two sciences) and applied to a college which required 3 sciences. So she was almost certain to be rejected (like many hundreds of other students who actually did meet the admissions requirements) and then went straight to the papers to claim discrimination. She was not then admitted to Harvard for medicine, but for a liberal arts education. It’s not a like for like comparison. </p>
<p>In addition, I believe that she was admitted to another UK uni (Nottingham?) for undergraduate medicine. It is very rare for a student to get more than one medicine admittance. I think they try to share them out. But for some reason Laura thought she was special. </p>
<p>Finally Laura’s high school head teacher was a Harvard graduate who clearly used this story for his own gain. If anything I begin to suspect 17 year old Laura was manipulated into this situation. </p>
<p>All this blew up when I first came to the UK over 10 years ago and is repeated every admissions cycle. It is entirely a storm in a tea cup. Laura was a student who preferred to study a mix of arts and sciences so she went to Harvard over Oxford. Sounds like it was a good choice for her, so where’s the story in that? It is exactly what most people would advise.</p>
<p>There may be students who are discriminated against by the UK school system, but Laura Spence is not one of them.</p>
<p>My child applied to Oxford as an international student. Having gone through the process with him, I had the impression that compared with Harvard and the like, they were much more focused on academics in admissions. They stick to a pretty specific set of criteria to shortlist the candidates for interviews, and interviews which are conducted by faculty members and very “technical” in nature play a vital role in the final decision. I didn’t find them to be more elitist or class aware, or maybe they are and I just have no way to know. As for “regional prejudice”, can’t one argue Harvard has it the other way around with a thing called “geographic diversity hook”?</p>
<p>I don’t know much but I’m told the northern “Geordie” accent is supposed to be considered low-class. Like, the same way that Southern accents are perceived in the North. Could be that it extends to the people as well? </p>
<p>I don’t really know though. I’d be good if someone familiar with the culture there could confirm what I said.</p>
<p>This is my experience of living here. Basically the top accent is rp (like the queen), the south east and then everyone else! </p>
<p>You all think there is only one UK accent (or maybe two if you believe there are any Cockneys left in London) but there are actually hundreds, maybe thousands (and same again for Ireland). There is pretty much a stereotype for every one!</p>
<p>The most disliked accent is Brummie, the accent of Birmingham, the second largest city in England. I can only think of one famous Brummie out of a population of a million - Ozzy Osbourne. I don’t how noticeable this is to non-British people. I don’t think I recognised this until someone told me. </p>
<p>Geordie is one of the popular accents (there is a terribly addictive tv show called Geordie shore. You can guess what this is based on)! You hear it on tv and radio all the time here. It is almost a badge of honour. Also if you ever have to speak to a call centre in the UK you always get a Geordie! It is considered the “friendly accent”. Having said that, the city of Newcastle-upon-tyne (capital of Geordieland) is considered a party town, so people do think Geordies are hardened drinkers/partiers.</p>
<p>Historically rp was taught at private schools, only those people went to university so anyone who spoke rp was considered intelligent. Hence everyone on the BBC in the 1950s spoke rp. It is a lot more diverse now, but recently there was a big debate about some tv presenter with a northern accent. I am sure if you Google it you will find lots of Daily Mail articles (a clear indicator of a non-story). There is definitely a generation divide though, as younger people have grown up with more diverse accents around them and don’t even notice. </p>
<p>The most diverse place I have ever lived for accents is probably Oxford! There are people from all over the world there (not just at the university, in the town too). British people totally love the subject of accents and I get teased for mine (Australian) all the time. When I first lived here this really really upset me. But I now know it doesn’t mean anything and is just interest, and don’t take offense (actually so used to it I barely notice. I have the accent conversation with every taxi driver, shop assistant, server etc I meet).</p>
<p>None of this is any different to America. Think about southern accent stereotypes, New Yorkers etc. It won’t ruin your life.</p>
<p>When I lived in the UK, people used to think that it was a great compliment to tell me that my (American) accent was “barely noticeable.” Does that happen to you, too, cupcake? It used to bug me enough that occasionally I’d make some snide reply like I was trying to keep my accent because I preferred not to be part of the whole “accent = class” culture. I also find the accent of Americans living in Britain slightly grating when I hear it now, but I probably sounded like that myself back then. But I’m an ESL teacher now and find accents really interesting too. I love teaching about pronunciation.</p>
<p>Is it true that the downmarket “Estuary” accent is being affected now by trend mongers who once would have tried to fake RP?</p>
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<p>I don’t know about this. Some Southern accents connote high social status, for example, while some NE accents are prole. Region is not a reliable proxy for social class in the US.</p>
<p>It does seem that accents are much more important in the UK to one’s social classification than they are in the US.</p>
<p>Benley…you might want to look at the most recent controversy in UK about Alastair Herron. I don’t think he would have even attended Oxford had he been accepted since he was accepted to Stanford, Harvard, and Princeton…maybe the admissions committee “knew” that…it’s a shame UK is losing one of their top minds…and I wouldn’t be surprised he goes on to found a MAJOR company in the future…in the States…not UK!</p>
<p>Anyway Oxford makes the decisions before knowing the exam grades - they use predicted grades and make conditional offers. I assume they know more about the candidate than we do, and perhaps received a less than enthusiastic school recommendation (which is crucially important). This is a little like the “scored 2400 in SAT and rejected everywhere” stories.</p>
<p>NJSue- some people in the public eye have been affecting a version of ‘estuary’, or at least making their pronunciation less crisp for a long time, witness Tony Blair. Accents in general matter less and less. As most uni offers are made without interview they are unlikely to affect the outcome. Oxbridge interviews, I understand, are intended to assess potential and the ability to cope with their teaching methods. Study in the US probably appeals to those with greater financial means (even with financial aid) and a desire to do something different. It was not on the radar for my children’s peers at our local comprehensive, which sends youngsters to unis each year.</p>
<p>Actually there was an academic discussion (last summer, I think) and it boiled down to the interview. The faculty who interview expect a very specific type of future students, ask very specific questions, and it ties in with habitus. Although they try somewhat hard to diversify their student body (it depends on the college, actually), students with working class accents, behaviour, etc (the kind that is polished out in public school or boarding school but isn’t even noticed in comprehensives or FE colleges) tend to be marked lower than those who don’t have these social characteristics. Tutors try for example to “factor out” what the accent stands for but it’s very difficult in British society. In the same way, “good” boarding schools have a Cambridge tutor and an Oxford tutor, who know exactly how to prepare the pupils, whereas many comprehensives simply don’t have both, or, often, either. Finally, some public schools prep pupils for A/A* marks and those are the predicted marks you need to enter Oxbridge. When a school where most pupils score A-C indicates the student’s predicted mark is A* it is not received the same as from a school where a large percentage of students get A/A*. All of this adds up.
Most universities do not require interviews and base themselves only on UCAS.
I think the key points are that Public universities in Britain are now roughly the same price as American universities, even with international rates; that some pupils look for something different and now know where to find it; and “American campuses” etc appeal to young Britons, as they do young people from other countries.</p>
<p>I think 75% of Harvard students would not get in to Oxbridge and 75% of Oxbridge students would not get into Harvard if they were American. Criteria for admission could not be more different.</p>
<p>I don’t understand what there is to feel bad about?</p>
<p>Seems that the flow of undergraduate students between UK and US is about equal (something like 5000 per year in each direction). So everyone gets a healthy additional set of choices.</p>