<p>Hi TheDad, didn’t see your message before I posted. Great program, yes? My D would have liked to do a program in St Petersberg since she had already taken Russian, but was advised it wasn’t safe in Russia at the time. Budapest worked out well in the end. Did you know that this summer, all former students are invited for networking and festivities to celebrate the 25th anniversary? My D is trying to go. She attended in Fall 2009 (was Math/CS major.)</p>
<p>–sorry for the digression, all. Part of the idea is that you are supposed to spread the word about programs like this. Often science and math majors don’t hear that there are substantive and unique programs out there for them. Not that there aren’t for other areas too. Study abroad provides opportunities for field work in many areas.</p>
<p>BrownParent and TheDad - does this mean your daughters have an Erdos number?</p>
<p>Very cool - that in and of itself would be worth the time in Hungary IMHO.</p>
<p>mathmom, did you read Der Richter und sein Henker at the end of your first year of German?</p>
<p>I’m not sure my d would plunge in and learn the language. I spent significant time overseas between the ages of 13 and 24, and it molded me significantly. I suppose I feel that, given the right program, this would be my d chance to see how living in a different culture changes your perspective on your own country.</p>
<p>I just wanted to chime in and agree that most (not all) study abroad programmes are a waste of money. Well, not a waste of money exactly – just a horribly expensive vacation.</p>
<p>Anything that doesn’t involve you finding your own apartment, and directly registering with the foreign uni is a glorified vacation IMO.</p>
<p>Most of the ‘study abroad’ experiences people tout so much could be gotten far cheaper by renting an Apartment in Paris or Shanghai for the summer, and just getting on a plane. Want to meet local people, try couchsurfing.</p>
<p>I think a major draw of study abroad is that people want to be able to say ‘when I lived in Paris for a few months …’</p>
<p>BP, my D has heard the same thing about the Russian programs…I think there’s a small but elite program in Moscow as well…but was warned off for a number of reasons ranging from safety to medical to logistical. </p>
<p>D was planning to go back to Budapest for the 25th but just can’t make the finances/vacation time work.</p>
<p>FR, I don’t know what an Erdos number is but I can pronounce “Erdos” correctly in Magyar if that’s of any help. </p>
<p>KITYS, I’m aware of some programs without much rigor but I know of quite a few programs that weren’t glorified vacations. One of D’s classmates spent a year in Classics split between Rome and Oxford and worked her butt off.</p>
<p>Btw, BP, yes, I proselytize for the BSM program for those who are math majors. It seemed to be a very well run program and the informal education outside the classroom went well. Only disappointment for D was her host “family” was a recent widow with two adult daughters who wanted someone to “mother.” On the plus side, I think D’s co-housemate in the program may be a lifelong friend.</p>
<p>Sure (and I did say most, not all) … but I’d venture that the slacker versions are far the majority (based purely on the preponderance of anecdotes).</p>
<p>Should the only or overarching goal of each study abroad experience be “fluency” in a non-native language?
If that is not the goal then are their other lofty reasons to study abroad - over and above a “vacation”?
If fluency is a goal then under what circumstances would a study abroad in England, Australia, South Africa etc., ever be “acceptable”? (i.e. a worthwhile educational experience over and above a vacation?)</p>
<p>I don’t think fluency has to be the only or overarching goal, but I do think the goal should be a great understanding of the culture of that country. If you can’t speak the language with some fluency there really is a limit to what you can learn about the culture. </p>
<p>That said, I would not make fluency a hard and fast rule. I don’t think studying Math in Budapest is a bad thing.</p>
<p>By that definition, those that live on campus at their ‘home’ university are doing a glorified vacation. That and the idea of reciprocal or arranged registering is to both allow ‘spots’ at a foreign universities and (often) to guarantee to the student that their tuition costs will be the same for each semester, regardless of where it is. </p>
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<p>There are too many variables to say ‘it must be this or it’s not worth it’ or it’s a ‘glorified vacation’ or the like. Well, except for the ‘4 week in Florence’ kind of ‘opportunities’ - that’s no different than a corporate boondoggle except the corporate guys know better than to put it on their C.V.</p>
<p>It’s easy to understand the value of study abroad if it is specific to one’s career interests (ie, ideal job requires fluent Spanish so student goes abroad to learn Spanish).</p>
<p>The harder case is when one goes abroad more for “enrichment” purposes. Learning a language is an important step to “getting into the head” of a different culture. So perhaps going abroad where English is spoken actually makes it easier to immediately jump in.</p>
<p>I think the primary value of studying abroad is the potential to understand one’s own biases and that what one takes as given is not shared universally. As an American abroad, I was frequently expected to explain US government policies and actions. This gave me more of a sense of my own identity as an American. Different cultures also have different ways of interacting with strangers and establishing friendships, which I believe can also contribute to one’s understanding of self and values.</p>
<p>The important thing is that the student be willing to leave his/her comfort zone. It is often too easy just to stay in the American ghetto, even when abroad.</p>
<p>I don’t think studying math in Budapest is a bad thing at all.
My post was promted by the OP who is leading with why bother with a short stay if you can’t become fluent? Also, that anything less than fluency is nothing more than a vacation.</p>
<p>Can’t a semester or summer study abroad be educationally beneficial - in a “liberal arts” sort of way? Should study abroad be only reserved for specific language majors or those who will be studying their major at an adv level - (math in Budapest)?</p>
<p>Full disclosure here - One of mine went to England for a few weeks and studied Shakespeare intensely. Being a chem major she could not take a semester. No fluency was attained.
I guess some would claim it was a vacation but then isn’t college a vacation.</p>
<p>Another is headed to Barcelona for 7 weeks this summer. She is taking 3 courses, one Spanish and 2 in English. She hasn’t had Spanish since high school and fluency is not a goal. I admit to being on the fence here - it is a “perk”. However, she is a science major, taking only the minimum of liberal arts courses and I also see this as an extension of her liberal arts education.<br>
In fact, I don’t know any of my kids peers who did a study abroad to attain fluency.<br>
Is it expensive? The tuition is actually cheaper than if she took 3 courses at her university in the summer. </p>
<p>I guess my point is - there are multiple goals and many different study abroad programs available for students to meet those goals. To make this all about fluency is to deny a whole boatload of kids from a great learning experience that they might never otherwise have.</p>
<p>JustAMomof4, so do you think your daughter’s time in England provided much of a cross-cultural experience?</p>
<p>I agree that it is great for her to take a course in England regardless, just wondering whether there was a benefit in terms of experiencing contemporary English people, culture, etc.</p>
<p>Good point! I suppose the difference is that time spent at the home campus (at least in theory) is focussed on academic work, while in many cases study abroad (at least the bad kind) seems to involve very little academic work.</p>
<p>If the main value of studying abroad is hanging out with Americans from other colleges, and seeing the sights, then yes it is a vacation.</p>
<p>As a junior on an exchange program in England at the moment, I’d say that, yes, being here has allowed me to understand English culture more, but beyond using a bunch of different words for the same things, I haven’t found the students here to be different from those in the U.S. when it comes to attitude towards academic work, social life, or politics (in contrast, my experience with German students was far more interesting as there are many more differences). Socially, I’d put it this way: they listen to the same music, they stay out just as late or later, and they like binge drinking. </p>
<p>I decided on England because I wanted to experience the British style of education and study a subject of interest in greater depth than would be possible at my home university (and which England has a particular affinity for – medieval history). I’d previously been on one of those summer “vacations” in France with other Americans from my university and while I didn’t attain any language fluency (nor did I arrive with any preparation), it was a good personal development opportunity. Could I have done it without the program? Well, probably not very well in France without knowing French. </p>
<p>My generalized view of studying abroad is that a semester should either be intended as a new academic opportunity or a language/cultural immersion and a summer is more of a vacation with potentially some educational value. I don’t believe you can truly gain much from studying abroad if you’re only away for 4-5 weeks – it’s just not enough. My “spring break” this semester in Germany ended up being 4 weeks and while it was educational and enjoyable, I wouldn’t have traveled here and spent thousands on a program for that piece of my experience alone.</p>
<p>What have I gained? My academic experience has been great and the need to “start over,” in the sense that a freshman at college must create a new life, has been very useful in increasing my self-knowledge just before I’ll need to decide on a post-college career path. Getting away from the familiar is truly the best way to understand yourself.</p>
<p>Don’t do yourself down – lots of people in Paris especially speak English, and you could easily rent a room or an apartment for the Summer. There’s even a paris craigslist!</p>
<p>fendrock - JustAMomof4, so do you think your daughter’s time in England provided much of a cross-cultural experience?</p>
<p>It was England after all. ;).
She went to study Shakespeare. She did that intensely. They were mostly in London but also went to Stratford (or where ever his house is).
She would tell you yes. She loves Shakespeare and this was an opportunity to study and watch his plays in England. Even though she was a chem major and works in that field - she does stage crew in the summer for a Shakespeare theatre. It’s all about being a well-rounded person, no?
If I can add - she went with other students from her school, and a professor from her school. She did not study at a university over there. They all had to take pre-requisites before they went.</p>
<p>I did a nine week summer abroad in the dark ages and did attain fluency, but had taken the language in HS and college. It was also pretty good culturally, but I was isolated in the place I stayed so often was bored, too when there were not other students staying there. Knowing the programme has a group of students would be smart.</p>
<p>One of mine is about to embark on an 8 weeks summer abroad language immersion of the language she studied in college and as she plans to apply for a PhD and will need multiple languages, that purpose is good enough for the journey. The general exposure should be a bonus to her liberal arts education or well roundedness as a person</p>
<p>FR, thanks for the link to the Erdos number. I forwarded it to D.
Alas, I doubt she will ever co-author a paper in Mathematics. Economics, however…</p>