<p>A good read on this subject is Loren Pope's Looking Beyond the Ivy League.</p>
<p>yeah I agree, I just read that book, it's awesome! It certainly does enlighten me, as an applicant not up to the Ivies standard.</p>
<p>In medicine we talk about research in which the end points of what is considered a positive or negative result are poorly chosen...this study fits that description. Just looking at graduation rates does not tell the whole story. Let's face it, scraping by with a 2.0 or a 2.5 that's needed to get a degree is not that difficult for most people who are looking towards even slightly competitive colleges. This is likely VERY true for the selected sub-population that makes up CC posters, in which case fit should continue to matter.</p>
<p>Certainly graduation rates and retention rates are easy to find, easy to look at and assess, but they fail to show any sort of real picture of the student stuck at a school that doesn't fit for them.</p>
<p>Students still know themselves the best. And college is more than just graduating with a degree. A student can still graduate and manage to hate the school and the four years he or she spent there. You have to pick a school somehow. Why not pick the school that's a good fit?</p>
<p>Well that's what I think--I decided to trust my kid with this, as my parents trusted me way back when. They didn't have much money, so I went on my own after my first drop-out, but back in the 70s and 80s, college was much more affordable.</p>
<p>There's a reason why students transfer out. They might think that school's a great fit for them but as they go through their first year, suddenly it's all illusion.... and so they transfer out into a better fit school because their first year experience taught them about their own preferences.</p>
<p>I haven't read the entire thread, but my reaction to this article is that it is probably true for the vast majority of college students - notably students who are attending large universities where everyone should be able to find her niche.</p>
<p>I am wondering though how well-represented small colleges were in the study (given that only very few students attend LACs and the like). A hardcore science person at an artsy LAC or a very conservative student at a very liberal institution will probably not be happy in their college environments. And it appears to me that mostly smaller colleges pay a lot of attention to "fit".</p>
<p>I agree with ticklemepink as I am undergoing the same situation myself. I'm actually transferring to a school similar to my dream school (haha, b@r!um, you lucky so and so attending BMC!) -- more academically focused. I thought that I was going to be okay turning down BMC because of finances and going to my second choice, seemed a very good fit in everything except it was not nearly as academically rigorous as my high school experience was...</p>
<p>... dead wrong. I'm always bored and I'm on constant cruise control. As someone who LOVES to be busy, I'm literally going crazy. (I have anxiety problems that I've never had before, I'm more antisocial, etc.) I'm highly involved in a couple clubs, I'm an activist, I hang out with people, etc. but I need more to do in my schoolwork.</p>
<p>So I personally think I knew what I needed from the very beginning but now I understand even more how much I want and need it.</p>
<p>It's silly to base whether or not fit benefits students just by analyzing graduation rates. If every student in America went to their local community college, graduation rates would skyrocket, but that hardly means that those with Ivy potential will be able to thrive as much at their CC as at Harvard.</p>
<p>That being said, I agree that 18 year olds should be given more credit in some areas. Obviously, some students will know that they will be happiest at a Big 10 school or at school with little to no substance abuse. At the same time, I think that we can't really be sure if we want an urban or rural area without having come from a place like that. If I grew up my entire life on a little farm in the middle of nowhere and I loved it, I could say I wanted to go to a rural school and it would probably great for me. I can't be sure that I want an urban school because I've never experienced it. That doesn't mean I shouldn't test it out if there's a school that meets a lot of my other needs.</p>
<p>"If most students bloom where they're planted, why are so many chasing after highly ranked schools?"</p>
<p>Blooming at a CC and blooming at Harvard would involve very different outcomes. At a CC, one would graduate with a degree, would probably know a lot of people who go there prior to attending, and would probably have a lot of fun, but at Harvard, there's a diversity of people from every state and even other countries, there's leadership, research, and internship opportunities, there's world-class professors, and one would probably learn more than what is required for their degree (a lesson in liife, if you will).</p>
<p>I think there are two aspects of "fit":</p>
<p>1) Fit with the HS senior's expectations, desires, personal self-image, etc.
2) Fit with the intellectual and social needs of that student in a way that will maximize his/her potential four years later.</p>
<p>The first is often easy to determine, particularly when the student "falls in love" with a school or type of school. The latter is a lot more difficult to assess, and may become apparent only when a student really blossoms in a particular environment.</p>
<p>Perhaps the problem is that REAL "fit" can only be determined after the fact.</p>
<p>What passes for fit in most cases is the match with the student's preferences for learning and social environments, intended career path, etc. These preferences often aren't based on actual experience, so it's not surprising that students change majors in college, find a bucolic rural campus (that had seemed so appealing) boring, etc.</p>
<p>This is one of those cases where one needs to see the original study rather than depending on a summary of a summary provided by others. </p>
<p>When I first read the intro. by the OP, I thought its premise was ridiculous, that students chose the wrong schools for themselves and as a result ended up dropping out. I think the reasons for dropping out are likely to be far more complicated.</p>
<p>But then I read the Higher Ed. summary and it seemed to put forward the notion that people make the wrong determination -- or for the wrong reasons -- of what would be a good fit for them, and that the colleges in turn basing their admissions decisions on what the students determine about that fit can make the wrong choices. That seems like a very plausible and likely proposition.</p>
<p>Just look at CC which is a board where people spend a lot of time sussing out different schools. I see a lot of people making choices that seem really well thought out, but also very many that seem to be based on trendiness or prestige or some other narrow foci that won't help students connect with the right schools, IMO. And this is a population self-selected to be very thoughtful about the whole choice of college process.</p>
<p>Three things are true:</p>
<p>1) Choosing a college is like selecting a mate. It requires a lot of time, information, and good instincts. And I'd say that most people don't put in the time, gather the information, and in many cases lack good instincts. Lacking good instincts usually has a lot to do with not knowing and listening to oneself and instead listening to others, often.</p>
<p>2) People are going to tell colleges what they want to hear to get in often. So, if the student gives all sorts of apparently well thought out reasons why the fit is good, but these are essentially lies, the fit was never really there.</p>
<p>3) People change. What seemed like a good fit in high school doesn't necessarily turn into a good fit.</p>
<p>Bedhead, what you say is true. However, I want to add a few more observations:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Most colleges try to impress the students as much as possible while hiding important information.</p></li>
<li><p>Students at age 17 frankly are rather inept in determining what is the right fit for themselves. They usually make stupid judgments on very limited observations such as on the quality of the tour guide or on a speech given at an open house.</p></li>
<li><p>Students tend to discount financial implications and overly emphasize thinks like architecture, facilities, average looks of student bodies, the landscaping as determined by the weather etc. They also get hoodwinked into believing the slick marketing brochures that colleges disseminate.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>blah blah blah</p>
<p>"If most students bloom where they're planted, why are so many chasing after highly ranked schools? Is it just so that they can say, "I went to Harvard" in the hopes that others will think more highly of them than if they'd gone to a no name school?"</p>
<p>I look at it more as the opportunities that a school like Harvard--although not necessarily Harvard--can offer. Job placement, internships, research opportunities, and grant money for research need to be looked at for students who want to explore more than merely what is in the classroom. When I looked a schools, I didn't look at just the teachers and what was taught in the classroom, I looked at what I could do to enhance my education. I applied to Yale and Harvard not only for the prestige, but also for the imensity of the opportunities available. I'm sure there are people who apply to top level schools merely for the name brand, but please don't discret the rest of us who want to utilise everything possible that a school has to offer us.</p>
<ol>
<li>Students at age 17 frankly are rather inept in determining what is the right fit for themselves. They usually make stupid judgments on very limited observations such as on the quality of the tour guide or on a speech given at an open house.</li>
</ol>
<p>I second this. I don't even think kids at age 17 can have the ability to take their critical thinking skills to the next step. They can usually regurgitate information back on a test easily but they can't bring in their own experiences or think critically about the information being discussed. They are naive in thinking that college tour guides are the truth. All tours are sugar coated and will never show you any of the bad aspects of the school. But people go to college to bring their thinking to the next level. So it doesn't matter if their school of choice turns out to not be a good fit for them. What matters is getting that education and learning how to think and learning how to learn for life.</p>
<p>"They also get hoodwinked into believing the slick marketing brochures that colleges disseminate." I don't think at 17 they realize all colleges are businesses. Colleges want to make money. They spend money on flashy marketing tools to hook in naive students that haven't completely done all of their homework. I never applied to schools in high school but having some community under my belt is a good thing. When I requested info from some schools I never realized how much money they spend on flashy brochure packets. I was in awe when I got one in the mail. You'll also notice there are never pictures of...well, I'll be frank, ugly people. Colleges sugar coat everything but what can you do, they want money too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't even think kids at age 17 can have the ability to take their critical thinking skills to the next step. They can usually regurgitate information back on a test easily but they can't bring in their own experiences or think critically about the information being discussed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As someone who has been educated specifically to be able to do so, I must say your sweeping generalization is offensive and asinine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Students at age 17 frankly are rather inept in determining what is the right fit for themselves. They usually make stupid judgments on very limited observations such as on the quality of the tour guide or on a speech given at an open house.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm also sure that there are helicopter parents facing midlife-crises who coerce their children into applying to schools based solely on the factors that solely they themselves perceive to be "fitting."</p>
<p>kwu...
AMEN!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>I agree kwu. 17-year-olds are definitely capable of making uninformed decisions that are based more on the looks of the campus, but parents and adults are also capable of making the same type of judgments based more on the school's academic reputation, cost, and proximity to home. In the end, neither should be the sole determinant in a student's choice, but both should be considered.</p>
<p>After all, if the student who will eventually go to college isn't at all fit to decide which college is best for them, then who in the world is?</p>
<p>And yes, getting a good education is important, but if a student is miserable, he/she cannot fully expand his/her horizons outside of the classroom. And after all, isn't the point of education to prepare a student for what he/she will do after leaving the classroom for good?</p>
<p>If we can't make choices for ourselves now, when on Earth can we?</p>
<p>"As someone who has been educated specifically to be able to do so, I must say your sweeping generalization is offensive and asinine."</p>
<p>Well, I can speak from personal experience. When I was 17 and in high school, even in college, my critical thinking and reasoning skills were weak. So was that of my peers. We were taught how to spit information back on tests in the class and prepare for the MCAS and SATs our entire time in high school. To compare the critical thinking skills of a high schooler to that of a college student is no match. You've taken offense to my comment because obviously you're a high school student, probably a senior applying to colleges. Trust me, you'll look back in two years and know that you have much better reasoning and critical thinking skills. Also, a lot of people are late bloomers as far as developing these skills. Why take offense? The curriculum around my area was never really based on critical thinking. I can't think of any point in time in high school when my brain hurt. It's not the students fault but the education system itself. Teachers in my area are more concerned with helping students pass the MCAS and raising scores on the SATs that they hardly have anytime to teach. All my tests in my classes we spit back info given to us. We never analyzed literature in my english classes as extensively as I do now in college.</p>
<p>You may be right random, but if the future college students aren't qualified to make the decision about their college, then who is? Teenagers are certainly capable of making rash decisions which they think are justified, but can't the same be said for adults?</p>