Suggestions for Applying to Law Schools - MIT Engineering Student

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I'm an MIT Junior in Aerospace Engineering, applying to Law school this upcoming year. Specifically, my intentions are currently to go into IP law or corporate law.</p>

<p>First off, I'm looking for any advice into how I may bolster my application. This is the breakdown so far:</p>

<p>LSAC GPA: 3.80
LSAT: Not yet
Letters of Rec: Three professors I have worked with
Leadership+Service: Heavily involved in Fraternity, Helped run campus events, Fundraising, Helped start political club</p>

<p>My GPA is somewhat low because I am graduating early (Fall 2012) so I have taken a heavy course load almost every semester in order to save $25,000 (MIT has one flat tuition rate for full-time students). This, in addition to fraternity involvement and working part-time as a grader, resulted in a couple B/B+s.</p>

<p>I know it's hard to gauge anything without an LSAT, but I am expecting a 165-175. I am currently going through the PowerScore LSAT Bibles and have purchased many practice tests in preparation for the LSAT in June. Right now I am trying to study in my free time, but after finals I will have about 20 days for hardcore studying and practice.</p>

<p>Do I have a decent shot at some of the T14s, or schools slightly out of the T14 range?</p>

<p>Question 1: I know a few lawyers who would be willing to write me a letter of recommendation. Is this something I should do or is it frowned upon, considering I have not worked with them at a firm?</p>

<p>Question 2: Do I get a "GPA boost" for my engineering degree and heavy course load I took on to graduate early from MIT?</p>

<p>Question 3: Is there anything I should be doing, other than working hard on my grades and LSAT practice, to really improve my application?</p>

<p>Stanford is definitely one of my top choices, partly for its IP reputation, nice weather, and the fact that many of my friends will be working in Palo Alto. Do I have a chance there?</p>

<p>Finally, I had a quick question about school decisions: Is there a large difference between T14s and schools ranked ~15-20, such as UT Austin or Vanderbilt, in the eyes of hiring law firms? If I hypothetically had to choose between Northwestern and UT Austin, I would be at odds because Austin is nicer location-wise (at least in my opinion) to Chicago, but Northwestern is ranked higher, even though I imagine both offer the same quality of education.</p>

<p>A final side-note, my long term plan is to live Texas and eventually start my own business in addition to working for a law firm, if that affects anything. While I'm not a Texas native, business is good there.</p>

2

<p>No one can tell you your actual chances without actual LSAT scores. Please keep in mind that the range between a 165-175 is huge.</p>

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<p>Did you work at these firms post grad/summers or part time? If no, then they really have nothing relevant to add to your application.</p>

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<p>no</p>

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<p>It would be hard for you to get a job in Texas with out significant ties</p>

3

<p>A 3.8 is not “somewhat low” it’s high enough to get you in anywhere… with the matching LSAT. Come back when you’ve taken the LSAT. If your goal is to work in Texas, Texas is one of the best options.</p>

<p>Also, if you are planning to start your own business WHILE working for a law firm, think again.</p>

4

<p>Sybbie - you say “It would be hard for you to get a job in Texas with out significant ties”</p>

<p>Are you experienced with IP law? Do you really think that UG MIT wont help in that arena? Or are you just making a general statement without consider OPs background and what he wants?</p>

5

<p>MITlaw,</p>

<p>I went to Duke for law school, and you definitely have the profile to get into a T14 assuming you get a good LSAT scores. In my opinion, having a science background from MIT is a huge advantage as many law schools do not see much of that profile. Also, I understand MIT students often work in groups and this is what law students do as well and so nice to have some experience with that.</p>

<p>When I went to Duke (20 years ago unfortunately), many of the top students who made a law journal and had the best grades, had backgrounds in science, math, CS, philosophy and other majors stressing critical thinking skills. The Poli Sci, history, psych, language majors did not do as well. I know this is anecdotal, but where I work (trial lawyer at DOJ) many of the honors students have similar non-traditional backgrounds). </p>

<p>Also, while IP law is certainly an option given your background, do not feel limited to that. Your MIT training will have prepared you for many different legal options.</p>

<p>Finally, take some writing classes. I good writer can survive at a top law firm for ten years (ie until partner decision) without needing many other skills because few law students write well (even those coming from the very top law schools). Not a shot at those law schools, which generally are awesome. But in my past work at a private law firm (associate and partner) for 16 years, I saw lots of bad writing from grads of the top law schools and, as a result, they did not last more than a few years at the firm.</p>

6

<p>My advice differs based on whether you want to do corporate law or IP law. If you go into corporate law, then going to the best law school possible matters. If you go into IP law, the MIT credential may matter more than where you go to law school. However, you may also need an advanced degree, even a Ph.D., in science in order to be attractive to top law firms and corporations.</p>

<p>The ranking of the law school has very little to do with the quality of the education.</p>

7

<p>Thanks all for the advice.</p>

<p>Addressing the writing classes, I’ve taken 5 “Communication-Intensive” courses which require large amounts of writing and oral communication. Moreover, I’ve been particularly adept at writing throughout my education.</p>

<p>Another quick question–what can I do between the time I graduate (December) and the start of law school? It seems that few law schools have summer session (Northwestern might have summer programs with its 2 yr program?). While I’ve heard many people say to take it easy before law school begins, I have an entire 9 months free.</p>

<p>I definitely will be visiting schools, but other than that I’m not sure what to do.</p>

8

<p>If you want to live in Texas, then UT would be a very good school to attend due to networking options and all of the Texas alums. Nationally, UT us well regarded and places top UT students at good law firms. </p>

<p>Law firms and the federal government’s top agencies (SG, DOJ, SEC, appellate at any agency), for better or worse, place great emphasis on the prestige of your law school. (unfortunately, lawyers are generally very snobby about their education) </p>

<p>At least when I went to law school at Duke (and this may have changed due to the economy, with the numbers going downward a bit), if you went to a top 5-7 school (ie Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, and Columbia, and now I understand that Penn and NYU have probably joined this group), you would get a very good legal job virtually no matter what and the top third were good candidates for a federal judicial clerkship, with the top 10% having a shot at the best appellate clerkships and the tops in that group the S.Ct). </p>

<p>If you went to a top school that some would consider in the top 10 (but of course more than 10) (no particular order)-- (Cal–Berkeley, UVA, Duke, G’town, Cornell, Michigan, UCLA, Vandy), being in the top half of the class generally guaranteed a top job, being in the top 3/4’s a legal job, top 10-15% for a decent shot at a federal clerkship, and top 5% for a prestigious appellate clerkship, and maybe every few years a S. Ct. clerkship for a top student (with the exception of UVA, which recently has done a very good job of getting its top law students clerkships with appellate judges known to feed the S. Ct.). </p>

<p>At the next tier (20 or 30 schools, including lots of very good state schools like UT (i.e. ND, UNC, Hastings, GW, Emory, Wisconsin, OSU, Indiana, Washington – just to name a few), top 25% (top job)/50% (legal job), 5% (federal clerkship/unlikely (S. Ct.) </p>

<p>Everyone else (top 10%/33%/unlikely/unlikely). The exceptions are for those people who network well which increases one’s chances no matter what. </p>

<p>One of my sons (now junior in HS) wants to be a lawyer and my advice to him will be if you can get into one of the first two tiers go and go to a third tier of you want to live in the same region as the school Otherwise, forget it.</p>

9

<p>Great re the writing because that by far is the most important skill lawyers need to succeed at the beginning of their careers.</p>

<p>On what to do for nine months, most who go to summer session do so because they want to combine law with another degree (I know Duke had a program where you could get a masters and a law degree in three years if you went to summer session before first year). The folks in the summer session group did a bit better than others (but only a bit, and not sure it had anything to do with summer session as opposed to self selection – ie, the smartest at Duke were the ones inclined to get two degrees).</p>

<p>Unless you want to get two degrees, I suggest enjoying yourself and traveling because you will not have much of a chance to do so for the next 10 - 15 years or so (ie no matter what law school you attend, the law is a jealous mistress–but a fun one too if you get into an area you like, for me trial law) – especially if you go for a partner track at a top firm. </p>

<p>Beyond that, study like hell for the LSAT (not sure if BarBri still has actual LSAT questions, but if so take that one), and optional but interesting read the Paper Chase (Turow) and Life on the Mississippi (Twain – nothing and yet everything to do with the law as it shows how important small details are in navigating the MS, just like in navigating a complex legal problem).</p>

10

<p>For corporate or IP law, there is less value to doing a clerkship. A federal clerkship will definitely open doors for a litigation practice, but the best bet for corporate or IP is to go directly into a law firm.</p>

11

<p>I meant One L by Turow (lol – see about the small details). Agree with cartera45 re IP law and clerkships, but do not consider yourself limited to IP just because you attended MIT. The skills you learned there (plus your native intelligence) are very transferable to any area of the law. </p>

<p>For background about different law schools and legal fields, see the American Lawyer, SCOTUS blog (best legal web site in my view about the S CT), the National Law Journal, and Above the Law (way to cynical, but still has some interesting observations and good dirt on top law schools). Also, the WSJ has the best coverage of current high stakes business trials going on around the country. </p>

<p>As you can tell, lawyers are obsessive (lol). Good luck!!!</p>

12

<p>I have another question–at MIT, the first semester is Pass/No Record. Nonetheless, we still received hidden grades (which I believe are still on file). I got all A’s my first semester, which would boost my GPA a bit. Is there a way for me to have these counted?</p>

13

<p>kay,</p>

<p>What is your problem and why are you always so freaking hostile all of the time?</p>

<p>my question back to you is

</p>

<p>No one said that where he went to school would not be of help to him when he actually went through OCI, however, he may not be a huge boost in the admissions process, especially if there are others in the pool with advanced degrees, work experience, military experience etc. Still at the end of the day, anything anyone says is going to be speculation with out any actual scores.</p>

<p>Back to OP,</p>

<p>any grade where you received a pass will not be calculated in your LSAC gpa. The courses which you received A’s in will be calculated in to your LSAC gpa.</p>

<p>His best bet would be that if he does score well on the June LSAT, he will get fee waivers in July/Jugust. If he falls in the range he should toss a priority decision to Duke. If Texas is on his radar, he should definitely toss in an application to UT.</p>

<p>Op should definitely check out top-law-schools.com look up the ask a student/graduate threads along with the legal employment threads.</p>

14

<p>Sybbie, I am sorry if you took my comments as hostile, but when people post questions, I think “pat” answers ask for clarification.</p>

15

<p>I know at least one ivy undergrad UT law person who practiced at a law firm on east coast for a couple of years, moved to texas and opened a single person practice. Took a couple of years but doing nicely.</p>

16

<p>MITLaw,</p>

<p>I am myself an MIT engineer who went into IP and corporate law late in my career after 25 years in the tech industry. I can tell you from personal experience that your MIT degree will be far more important to a successful career in IP law than any particular law school degree. I attended a second tier law school which has never been an issue. This is large part due to the fact there are very IP attorneys and even fewer really good ones. (less than 2% of all attorneys). I run my own firm and also am “Of Counsel” with several large law firms who lack an IP practice. I also operate as Chief IP Officer for a number of tech companies, handling all their IP needs from patents to contracting and licensing. I don’t handle litigation although I am occasionally called in as expert on patent infringement cases. While my original degree was in computer science, I handle pretty much all types of technologies except for biotech. There is curently a major shortage of IP attorneys especially patent attorneys, so the demand is strong. </p>

<p>I would personally suggest working a few yeare before going back to law school. You will get some industry experience which is always valuable. In addition, you may get your employer to pay for law school which is actually fairly common for engineers and scientists interested in IP law. I know a recent MIT engineer who was hired straight out of MIT by an IP law firm who is paying for her to attend law school. You may also want to take the patent bar even before you go to law school. You don’t need a law degree to take the patent bar, just a science or an engineering degree, and you can actually write patents as a patent agent. Good patent agents easily make over $100/hour as contractors and there is plenty of work. I work with several myself.</p>

17

<p>sybbie is correct. If you really want to practice in Texas, go to UT-Austin. Probably more valuable locally than any LS other than HYS (and even then not sure that ‘damn yankees’ would be that welcomed.). :)</p>

18

<p>@cellardweller- </p>

<p>You are absolutely correct. In the past year, my brother (with a Berkeley doctorate and years of research experience) co-founded a biotech firm. When he showed me a list of the business/legal people he’s been working with, it came as no surprise that MANY of them had worked as scientists at some point in their careers. </p>

<p>So they were able to understand the research and assess the IP strength. Also, they provided advice on additional data that needed to be obtained to further strengthen their IP position. Had they lacked real work experience as scientists, they wouldn’t have been able to help my brother or his cohorts:)</p>

<p>I would agree with you that the original poster should work as an engineer for a while before going to law school.</p>