<p>I'm a little out of the loop and confused.</p>
<p>My kid took AP tests this year (JR) and at the last minute took the new SAT with the essay. I know he will have more AP exams next year, but is he also supposed to take SAT2's? If so, why is it necessary?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>There are several sets of tests to keep straight here:</p>
<p>SAT I (used to be 2 parts, now 3 with the essay) is meant to be an indication of the student's ability to succeed in college and most colleges will require this test. There is much debate over whether the SAT I tells much at all (other than a student's ability to take a test), but it's rare that a school will not require them. (In some parts of the country, the ACT test is more popular and is used in place of the SAT I. I don't know much about the ACT but have read some students and reporting it as a more accurate representation of their abilities.)</p>
<p>SAT II Subject Tests are given in specific subject areas and are typically taken after completing a certain level of coursework in those areas to demonstrate competence and mastery. Many colleges require at least a couple SAT IIs in specific areas, and some colleges have very detailed requirements in this area ("one math, one science, and one humanities"). Not all schools will require these, but most ask for them -- check the websites for the schools your child is considering.</p>
<p>AP exams follow after coursework for advanced subject matter. Not all schools offer AP classes, and many students do not take AP classes (although most of the CC students appear to take many). It is also possible to self-study AP material. They are optional: I know of no college that requires them for admission, but at many schools, a high score in an AP test indicates a knowledge of college-level material and may qualify the student to place out of some intro courses, or into a more advanced section of a required course. APs should be considered optional but an indication of a student's ability to handle advanced coursework.</p>
<p>APs are not necessary. SAT I and usually SAT IIs are necessary. Check with the schools he's interested in.</p>
<p>SAT I, SAT II, and AP tests are all under the auspices of the same corporation, the College Board.</p>
<p>No school claims to use AP scores in admissions decisions. Indeed, they are self reported on the application, not by official score reports. Whether or not they are actually considered, and how they are used is a different story, of course.</p>
<p>OTOH, many schools DO require SATII scores, as mootmom pointed out. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that, at least in theory, SATII tests were designed as admissions decision tools, whereas AP tests were designed as tools for deciding to awarding college credit.</p>
<p>Three<em>to</em>go,
to add to what others have said, good SAT II scores are an admissions plus even if a college or LAC does not require them. </p>
<p>Since there is not exact correspondence between the AP and SAT II material, I strongly urge you or your son to pick up 'The Real SAT II's' from the college board. Taking a sample test a few weeks ahead of the real deal will point out areas that may need review. This is especially important in the history courses where the classroom emphasis may be different.</p>
<p>if your child is taking an AP course, it's also a great time to take the SATII's; it makes for a busy (and exhausting weekend) but the material is fresh in thier mind. </p>
<p>nmd: the Dean at Harvard said he prefers to see the ap scores if the kids report taking them.</p>
<p>I know, three, I didn't get this either last year, but it's true...and costly. However, many colleges do NOT ask for SAT II's...some ask for 2, some ask for 3. Make sure you go through your child's college list and check their individual websites to see what is required. The US News website is not always accurate.</p>
<p>I just don't understand why colleges need both SAT II AND AP. They are both administered by the College Board...as is the SAT. They must be making a pretty penny. The AP exams are the biggest moneymaker for them.</p>
<p>QG,</p>
<p>Like you say, it is best to go to each of the web-sites that your student is interested in to determine the testing requirements. However, I would point out that no school that I know of requires the AP test, just the SAT II. I believe that this is because the schools can get the students to sign up for the tests, the AP is administered only once a year.</p>
<p>Additionally, AP classes and associated exam scores can accelerate the graduation date of a student. I read of a student who graduated from HS with a bunch (maybe 13-15) AP exams completed and entered UVa as a first semester junior. This would save a couple of years worth of tuition for that student. Not a bad exchange for the approximately $1200 spent to take the exams.</p>
<p>As background here is the link to the UVa AP credit site:</p>
<p>mosts schools have similar information on their web-sites.</p>
<p>Ditto on checking out college websites; there's no central location for this info. However, just to clarify, I would point out that it's really most schools that are of interest to the members of this board (i.e. Ivys, Top 25 LAC, etc) that require SAT II scores. My own experience in looking at schools is that many of them recommend but do not require SAT IIs and a lot them don't mention SAT IIs at all anywhere in their admissions information (that's not to say that they would ignore scores that an applicant did submit)</p>
<p>bluebayou,
not suprised H wants to so the AP scores - having those on the honor system and the SAT II's reported from College Board doesn't seem like such a hot idea to me. The cost of sending the AP scores is pretty unreasonable.</p>
<p>three<em>to</em>go,
one final tip - if your son does have to take SAT II's, try to schedule so that at least one emergency retest date is available - in case of illness, or mis-bubbling or some other catastrophe.</p>
<p>Good thing about the AP scores is that you only need to send them once--to the school you'll be attending in the fall. And even then, it is only used for class placement or getting college credit.</p>
<p>ellemenope -
sounds like Harvard is wanting the score reports - I wonder if others will follow suit.</p>
<p>ohio_mom, I know that MIT asks applicants to list on their applications the AP tests they have taken or plan to take, and to note their scores if they've already taken the tests, but only request formal score reports from students who are matriculating in the fall and are requesting placement credit.</p>
<p>My son is under the impression that by noting a college on his AP test papers, that college would be included when the reports are mailed in July. He tried to call College Board today to verify that nothing else needs to be done, but their hours aren't so convenient for folks on the west coast, so he'll call tomorrow.</p>
<p>mootmom, your impression is accurate. Just make sure, if your kid takes tests both as a jr and sr that (s)he registers the same way both times. My D did not, so she had two records at the CB, and she had to call to get them merged and a new score report sent out over the summer before she started in the fall.</p>
<p>BTW, there is a built in check that would catch any "inaccurate" self reported scores on the application - almost all HS list the AP results on transcripts. Also, if you want to get an idea of how yours stacked up against your classmates, check the guidance department at your HS. They get a full report of scores, including statistics. For instance, the year my D took AP bio and Chem, she got a 5. I thought great, my D is a star. Well, she still is in my book, but 90% of her classmates received the same score as she on those two tests at her HS. Back to earth...</p>
<p>Well, she's a star in a bright constellation!</p>
<p>Ohio mom--Harvard does ask for AP scores on the application, but didn't make the kids send in the actual reports as part of the application process. If they do this year, it is a new thing.</p>
<p>ellemenope,
son didn't apply to the big H, but none of his apps asked for the actual scores unless he matriculated. All this sending of stuff gets pretty costly after a while. I got tired of seeing College Board on my credit card statements.</p>
<p>Mootmom: MIT is pretty laid-back about the whole AP score thing. We forgot to send our son's scores, and he was still able to use them for placement--we didn't send an actual copy until October. (They don't actually give credit for much based on the APs but they do give placement into the next course sometimes, and that's great, because it reduces the class size by switching semesters for the core courses.)</p>
<p>SAT IIs are meant to test mastery of a subject at the high school level. APs are meant to test mastery of a subject at an introductory college level. You would think that APs could be substituted for SAT IIs in the same subject, since they are a higher level. However, I know of no college that allows this. The reasoning is that colleges want everyone in the applicant pool to take the same level test so that they can be easily compared to each other. It helps colleges compare students who may have the same grades from very different high schools. Colleges cannot require AP scores for this purpose since so many high schools do not offer them. So they require SAT IIs from everyone, but only require AP scores from people wanting to use them for advanced placement.</p>
<p>All of that said, APs do count in the admissions process. They are not "required", and students should not report low scores. But admissions officers do look at them when they have them, and will boost a student who has a bunch of good AP scores. </p>
<p>Michelle Hernandez, former Dartmouth ad com, has an entire chapter devoted to AP and IB scores on pp 90-93 of her book A is for Admission. Here are some relevant passages:</p>
<p>" Perhaps the easiest and most effective way to override a mediocre AI (Academic Index) and to stand out academically is to score well on AP or IB exams. Although these are not factored into the AI formula (they are not offered by all high schools and therefore cannot be required by colleges), they are in many ways more useful for highly selective colleges than SAT II scores"</p>
<p>"So what effect can these AP or IB scores have on your application? A big one. (examples) ...even if the student's AI placed him in the academic 5 or 6 category (out of 9), the officer would probably boost the academic rating to a 7 because of excellent AP scores. In addition, if the student didn't seem to be that exceptional academically, a number of high AP scores could suddenly change the picture dramatically."</p>
<p>And Rachel Toor, former Duke ad com, writes about AP scores on p. 92-93 of College Confidential:</p>
<p>"Although the scores on the (AP) tests were meant, originally, for placement into higher level college courses and were not intended to be used in college admissions, they are. We expect students to score 5s on their tests. If they get a couple of 4s, that's okay, but anything below a 4 doesn't help much. We don't require that students report these scores for admission; if they do, however, we use them. I always told students that if they scored below a 4, not to report it to us."</p>
<p>"All of that said, APs do count in the admissions process. They are not "required", and students should not report low scores. But admissions officers do look at them when they have them, and will boost a student who has a bunch of good AP scores. "</p>
<p>As Texas137 said, colleges cannot require the AP scores. So, here's the conflict adcoms have: useful information, but spotty availability, and politically touchy.</p>
<p>In truth, I suspect the adcoms use the scores more to calibrate the strength of HS programs and to have a further check on grades etc. (A in AP chem and 2 on the AP exam? Hmmmm...) than for any absolute value in one applicant's scores. Why? Because for highly selective schools, for serious candidates, most or all of their scores will be 5s, and their mix of exams reported will be mostly a function of the school's curriculum. So, for schools in some parts of the country, you will have a lot of kids reporting 4 or 5 scores on the college app (meaning they took the exams as sophs and jrs) whereas in other parts of the country, an app will have only completed one or two AP courses.</p>
<p>So yes, as both Hernandez and Toor hinted at, they do count, but more in a negative way. (Hernandez's numbers are getting pretty dated, so I doubt anyone gets much of a boost from scores anymore, at least not as she described.)</p>
<p>Finally, even if one does not report mediocre scores, they may still be on the HS transcript. Something worth asking. And, if the scores are not reported, but the class is listed on the transcript, do you think the adcom will connect the dots???</p>
<p><a href="Hernandez's%20numbers%20are%20getting%20pretty%20dated,%20so%20I%20doubt%20anyone%20gets%20much%20of%20a%20boost%20from%20scores%20anymore,%20at%20least%20not%20as%20she%20described.">quote</a>
[/quote]
Even if Hernandez's description of the specific numbers or the Academic Index at Dartmouth is outdated, the general point seems to make sense and probably still applies. Namely, if students A & B are identical except that A has a bunch of high scores on AP exams and B doesn't, that's going to make A more attractive.</p>
<p>
[quote]
if the scores are not reported, but the class is listed on the transcript, do you think the adcom will connect the dots???
[/quote]
I've wondered this same thing. It's probably safe for ad coms to assume that kids will report "good" scores, and not report "bad" scores. But what proportion of kids who take an AP course end up taking the exam? Does anyone know? If lots of kids take AP courses and skip the exam, than the lack of reported scores on the college app is harder to interpret.</p>