Not sure that assessing graduation rates among groups would be meaningful. It’s commonly stated in jest but is factually accurate that the only thing harder than getting into Harvard is actually failing out of the school.
1 Like
This is not unique to Harvard. The same can be said for just about any US university.
1 Like
Note tha the quote said, “roughly three-quarters of white ALDC admits would have been rejected absent their ALDC status” This differs from 3/4 of ALDCs not being competitive academically. For example, a LDC admit could be similarly academically competitive to other applicants, but be weaker in ECs and personal than typically admits with his academic ratings. In this case the LDC admit is academically competitive, but would not have been admitted without the boost for being LDC. I believe this is fairly common. LDCs tend to be strong academically, as suggested by the stats below (from study).
Percent of Admits Receiving Listed Academic Rating
1 – 5% of non-ALDC, 3% LDC, ~0% Athlete
2 – 77% of non-ALDC, 75% LDC, 25% Athlete
3 – 18% of non-ALDC, 22% LDC, 61% Athlete
4 – ~0% of non-ALDC, <1% LDC, 14% Athlete
5 – 0% on non-ALDC, 0% LDC, <1% Athlete
A summary of the description of these categories from the reader guidelines is below.
Academic
- A potential major academic contributor; Summa potential. Genuine scholar; near perfect scores and grades (in most cases combined with unusual creativity and possible evidence of original scholarship, often substantiated by our faculty or other academic mentors.) Possible national or international level recognition in academic competitions.
- Magna potential. Excellent student with top grades and,
a. SAT and SAT Subject tests: mid 700 scores and up
b. 33+ ACT
c. Possible local, regional or national level recognition in academic competitions- Solid academic potential; Cum laude potential: Very good student with excellent grades and
a. SAT and SAT Subject tests: mid-600 through low-700 scores
b. 29 to 32 ACT- Adequate preparation. Respectable grades and low-to mid-600 scores on SAT and
subject tests or 26 to 29 ACT.- Marginal potential. Modest grades and 500 scores on SAT and subject tests (25 and
below ACT).
Rather than academic, among White admits, the largest gap between non-ALDC and LDC appears to be in the following criteria:
- Teacher LOR #2 – 75% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 57% of LDCs (18 point gap)
- ECs – 73% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 56% of LDCs (17 point gap)
- Teacher LOR #1 – 77% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 62% of LDCs (15 point gap)
- Personal – 84% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 70% of LDCs (14 point gap)
- Counselor LOR – 76% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 62% of LDCs (14 point gap)
Among Asian admits, the order was extremely similar to White students:
- Teacher LOR #2 – 73% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 53% of LDCs (20 point gap)
- ECs – 78% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 60% of LDCs (18 point gap)
- Teacher LOR #1 – 75% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 60% of LDCs (15 point gap)
- Personal – 73% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 60% of LDCs (13 point gap)
- Interview – 90% of non-ALDC admits received 1-2 vs 79% of LDCs (11 point gap)
3 Likes
Open admission community colleges don’t give any bump in admissions for athletes, because athletes and everyone else gets admitted. Mississippi public universities auto-admit in-state residents at the NCAA minimum, so in-state athletes are not going to get any lower admission standards than that (indeed, they may be held to higher standards than non-athletes if the non-athletes can be considered for admission below the auto-admit threshold).
Back when I did a web-scraping experiment (of a site that had information from colleges’ common data sets) a few years ago, it looked like the considered / not-considered / not-listed percentages for legacy were:
| Type of College | Considered | Not Considered | Not Listed |
|---|---|---|---|
| All | 43.8% | 39.1% | 17.0% |
| Public | 30.4% | 60.8% | 8.7% |
| Private Non-Profit | 57.2% | 29.9% | 12.9% |
| Private For-Profit | 5.5% | 31.3% | 63.1% |
There are a few colleges with heavy general education requirements where the minimum rigor for the general education courses is high. Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and MIT are examples of such.
Indeed, the general education requirements and courses that are allowed to fulfill them may be one of the better measures of how rigorous the college is outside of one’s major. However, “rigorous” in this context is somewhat student-dependent, depending on what subjects the student is strong and weak in, and what subjects the college emphasizes rigor in general education.
The description of the academic ratings suggests that applicants rated 4 have “adequate preparation”, meaning that they are expected to handle the course work at Harvard, though not necessarily in specific harder or honors courses. That suggests that Harvard course work is not super hard if a high school record of “respectable grades and low-to mid-600 scores on SAT and subject tests or 26 to 29 ACT” is enough to be able to handle the work.
Of course, academic rating 4 applicants generally do not get admitted even with LDC preference, though a few recruited athletes get admitted.
Wow…just wow. The AVERAGE Harvard undergrad GPA is 3.7?
Wow…just wow.
Not to be too technical, but the article is two months old (November 17, 2021), isn’t it?
With all due respect, at least from the perspective of the cited articles, the views of two senior posters, and the staggering average undergrad GPA cited in the thread, it appears that it is. Please do understand that I am not discounting your views in any way, but there are some compelling pieces of intel in this thread that I was not at all aware of.
I had no idea it was so easy to get a B at Harvard in any class, much less many classes.
An average undergrad 3.7 GPA? Is that documented somewhere? If so, that to me is case closed, and I would then modify my sentence above to remove “appears that it” to just say “it is”. And, if I wind up modifying my sentence, I’m planning on having a LONG talk with my DCs as to what college and the admissions process is really about.
If this is what higher ed in the US has become at the “top” schools, the high number of ALDCs and their seemingly less than stellar credentials is just the tip of the problem.
I will continue my view that the difference in difficulty in courses between, say, Harvard or Brown and other schools that are less selective, is significant.
Some students come from rigorous prep schools like Andover, St. Paul’s, Groton but for others Harvard is an adjustment.
I think two things are being confused here: level of difficulty and graduation rate. I know kids who had medical leaves, who were hospitalized in a psych. facility, were arrested for drugs and so on, and Harvard is very supportive and helps these young people in a variety of ways to graduate, without impacting their academic programs. So yeah, graduation rates are high.
Perhaps it is possible to choose easy classes but gen eds in math or science are definitely tough for some whose talents lie in the humanities/arts, and vice versa.
There is a lot of reading and certainly one skill learned is what work not to do.
I would have thought so.
Note that I am specifically NOT focusing on graduation rates, and I didn’t mention that in my post, except in your quote.
Rather, my focus is on the “easy” point. I am most curious about the average undergrad GPA. If that is documentable, that’s frankly a travesty. That GPA would be enough in my university “back in the day” to graduate summa cum laude and make Phi Beta Kappa.
ETA: I am digressing from the main point of the OP. My apologies in advance.
It seems preferable that highly capable students studying something they enjoy and working at it should get good grades rather than be forced onto a curve. Part of what these insanely selective schools are selecting for are students who can excel. That they do should not be so shocking.
3 Likes
Isn’t that a central point of this thread? That the ALDCs generally aren’t so highly capable when it comes to academics?
1 Like
I suspect the C’s (within ALDC) as a group are academically stronger than non-ALDCs, and much stronger than the rest of LDCs. Lumping them together with other LDCs likely distorted the strength of the combined group.
Supposed grade inflation at Harvard has been a hot button for decades. Here are some media pieces (lots more via google):
- Good overview/discussion. Bonus discussion on Princeton and Wellesley.
https://harvardpolitics.com/make-harvard-grade-again/
- 2017 Article, 2013 data
“I can answer the question, if you want me to.” Harris said. “The median grade in Harvard College is indeed an A-. The most frequently awarded grade in Harvard College is actually a straight A.”
- 2000-2001
According to the report, about 54 percent of undergraduates in humanities courses received A-range grades during the 2000-2001 academic year, compared with 50 percent of students in the natural sciences and 43 percent in the social sciences.
- Harvard Crimson annual by the numbers survey. Note not all students participate, nor are responses verified.
From 2021:
Following a steady rise over the past several years, grade point averages saw an overall increase once again, with almost two-thirds of seniors — 64 percent — reporting a GPA of 3.8 or higher, compared to 54 percent last year.
3 Likes
…at the risk of repeating myself. Thank you for posting all this. I truly had no idea it was like this.
Today might be a good day to chat with the DCs about what this increasingly bizarre world of US higher ed has become. Or perhaps it was always like this, and I just didn’t notice.
1 Like
In all fairness, I don’t think grade inflation (to the extent it exists) is unique to Harvard. I’m pretty sure gpa’s are similarly high at most elite schools. Of course the trope of “the hardest thing is getting in” has been around since I was in college. We used to joke that our friends at Harvard weren’t working as hard as we were (this was a bit tongue in cheek of course).
2 Likes
I respect and appreciate your opinion on ALDC preferences, but with respect to the “educational mission” of an institution getting federal monies, tipping ALDC is as arbitrary as a school’s decision to go test-optional, how much to weight GPA, whether to include class rank, etc. Part of the educational mission is crafting a class that can succeed, and they’re not failing in that respect.
Regarding various posts from others about grade inflation, I don’t understand the concern. Harvard brings in voracious learners, but do we know of people that instantly become slouches when they enroll? Is that what we are asserting about the ALDC’s?
It seems like a perfect environment for Montessori-like learning, where every student will consciously or sub-consciously find their way. Forcing a strict grading policy is a bit like teaching to the test—it truly restricts the potential of some high-potential students.
2 Likes
I have known much much less capable students who have graduated with high GPAs from other highly rejective schools simply by focusing on what they do well.
If I had been forced to take physics or high level math in college, I would probably not have a degree today. But I did quite well in college and post-grad work because I was able to focus on what I do well.
3 Likes
That actually makes it worse!
I want my children to really learn. Perhaps, I am old-fashioned (I am definitely old), but a spread of the grades is far more realistic. Even some of the Harvard deans cited in the articles posted by @Mwfan1921 openly acknowledged grade inflation was a real problem.
It just seems like more gaming of the system rather than, heaven forbid, actually learning and discovering new ways of thinking and new ideas. I don’t want my kids to waste their time and the family money where they are truly not challenged. Each day that goes by makes me realize how much of all this branding. No doubt, Harvard is superb in so many ways, but with ALDCs, grade inflation, high costs, etc, is it really worth it to even consider these “top schools”, I wonder?
Call me naive, I guess. And I suppose it’s always a case of YMMV and that you get out of it what you put into it. But, at least in undergrad, I want my children to be truly challenged so they discover new ideas and themselves.
1 Like
While not defending grade inflation at some colleges, Harvard included, have you seen some of these MS and HS grade distributions? Colleges did not start this, and that barn door will not now be closed.
4 Likes
I know, SE…it’s seemingly rampant.
It’s all just shattering my idealistic views of learning!
I think the concern about grade inflation generally is amply stated by several senior folks at Harvard. It’s a real concern as far as I can tell.
And, as it relates to ALDCs, that’s the point of the OP, isn’t? This group, which is widely disparate to be sure, seemingly benefits from the inflation, given that, as the OP indicates, their general academic performance is not on par with non-ALDCs.