Swarthmore vs. USC (full tuition) vs. UCB

Only the OP can answer why she applied to USC and then later determined it was a bad fit. But I continue to be puzzled about what Northwestern has anything to do with that question. From a distance at least, they seem like fairly dissimilar schools. SC is way bigger, is in LA and (at least one would think) has a much more dominant sports culture. I’d be more interested in someone describing their similarities.

If the real point of confusion is that she applied to a LAC and two larger universities, I can’t help with that one either, though I’ve always thought it just fine to be attracted to dissimilar things.

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OP replied: because she was doing literary research with a professor there. So, not for Northwestern itself but for academic reasons and one particular academic dept.
Also, OP’s family can easily afford 350k so money is not weighted in her decision at all.

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So, first things first.

If ending up with a PhD is your career idea, Swarthmore. It has one of the highest percent of students who go on to do a PhD - places 3rd or 4th among all colleges’ universities in the USA.

That is, of course, if money is truly not an issue.

The advantage of Swarthmore in this case is that it will give you a boost for jobs at LACs. As a rule, they prefer to hire applicants with experience at a LAC, so either a previous job, a visiting assistant professorship, or an undergraduate degree from a LAC.

While it’s true that a person can get into any PhD programs from any undergraduate, it also isn’t. The more prestigious your undergraduate schools is, the less you have to do in order to be accepted. In regards to prestige, Berkeley and Swarthmore are equivalent, and USC is good enough for anywhere, and actually is top ranked in Comp Lit. So a degree from any of those three will pass the “prestige requirements” of any grad school, except, maybe HYP, because these three prefer taking their own. You still will be in the running, though.

In short:

At Swarthmore you will likely have more peers who are also interested in doing PhDs and it will likely be easier to create relationships with your professors, set up research projects, etc.
At Berkeley, you will have world-wide reputation, if you want to do a PhD outside the USA
At USC, you will have both huge savings, and weather. Weather is far more important than you realize, if you’re been in the South. Being able to spend times outside throughout the school year is an amazing thing. It is also in one of the most vibrant cities in the world.

At both Swarthmore and USC, you will have the advantages of being at a wealthy private college, so many academic opportunities will be available.

At Berkeley and USC, you will have the advantages of a large university with a large number of faculty in your field of interest.

All three are great places to start an academic career in your fields of interest.

The vibes are different, and the comparison of Swarthmore to U Chicago and USC to Northwestern is apt. Think of a small U Chicago, and a Northwestern in a warm climate. Berkeley is not really comparable to any of the colleges you looked at but has a very northern California vibe. All sorts of interesting people and weird things. Imagine a place in which they mixed the computer nerds and the artsy kids together, and then added the the class officers. The theatre kids all went to USC.

At all three you’ll find kindred spirits, and at all three you’ll find great faculty mentors. It all comes down to size, vide, climate, and area.

You’ll really need to visit all three is you want to make an informed decision.

Now, though, let’s talk about:

Can your parents support you for the next 10-15 years, or maybe 30? You may want to attend USC and bank those $250,000.

First you will spend 4 years as an undergrad. Then you will spend 6-10 years as a grad student (that’s how long it takes in Comparative Lit), which pays a stipend, but one that puts you in the bottom 20% by income (we qualified for food stamps when our daughter was born and we were on two such salaries). Then likely a post-doc at below median wage for 4-5 years.

THEN, most likely your first faculty job will not be in NYC, because few jobs open up there every year, and there are about 100-200 applicants for every single job. There are very few jobs opening in your fields of interests, and far fewer than there are applicants. The chances of there being a “next job” are also not high.

So, if you do well in any of those schools, you could get into a prestigious PhD program, and finish your PhD, you will have good chance at getting a faculty position. However, that faculty positions is almost certainly not going to be in NYC, not very well paying, and most likely not at a college similar to where you will do your undergraduate.

In the “Inside Higher Ed” job site, there are almost 500 jobs in Sociology, but only 60 are Tenure Track - the rest are adjuncts, lecturers, other teaching positions, post-docs and a handful of senior positions. Of those Tenure-Track jobs, not a single one is in NYC, and some 43 are at colleges that you likely never heard of, of them 5-6 are seriously religious (and would not hire you). There are also 550-600 new Sociology PhDs every year, so those jobs are what the “best qualified” 10% of sociology PhDs get.

Right now, Harvard’s Sociology department has 80 PhD students, and 15 finished their PhDs in 2022. Again, there were some 60 open TT positions in 2022.

For Comp Lit, the situation is even more grim.

All of this is for a highly qualified applicant, who attended great schools, did very well in grad school, and had a highly productive post doc.

As for being a writer? Not until you are a tenured associate professor, some 30 years from now. Until then there will be no time for you to write anything that is not professional literature, teaching plans, and grant proposals. Even tenured faculty are required to teach, mentor students, get grants, and do research, as well as be a member of a number of committees, which is extremely time-consuming. That is a full time job, and, when you are tenure-track, it is a full time and a half job.

My point is that your vision of living the life of a professor at, say, NYU, Columbia, or Manhattan College, writing on the side, is really really unlikely to happen.

What would be your alternative plans?

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Agree re career goals, except postdocs aren’t common in the humanities and when they happen, it’s usually 1-2 years. Unfortunately, more and more common are temporary visiting positions for a few years before one lands a tenure-track job (if one is lucky). And yes, one doesn’t usually get to choose the location–humanities Ph.Ds should be ready to go wherever the job is. These plans are quite divorced from reality.

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I’ll amend my advice:

It sounds like you really favor Swat. It is one of the handful of schools most like UChicago in its intellectual curiosity and overall academic rigor. (Reed, Columbia, Carleton also come to mind). Hopkins, CMU, Caltech, and MIT are also known for quite heavy rigor, but I’m not sure it’s intellectual rigor – more pre-professional, given the STEM cultures of those schools.

Anyway, so you want that type of academic culture.

And you’ve made it fairly clear that paying full price at a school will not be detrimental to your family or your/their ability to pay for grad studies, should you choose that route.

So given your preference for the Swat culture, and your ability to pay, go ahead and choose Swat.

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Hi! Thank you for all the professional insights.

My family and I are accurately aware that I have chosen a career with no immediate, short-term rewards. They are willing to support my dreams, going as far as immigrating across the Pacific Ocean so I can have a brighter future away from my previous, rather suppressive environment in my home country. We’re not planning on returning, and very much determined to build our roots here in the U.S.

I do have a wide range of interests in addition to solely serving higher-level academia. I can picture myself having a career in playwriting since I am already somewhat familiar with the industry and have had my works produced. I also have a strong passion for social services. Ultimately, I want to contribute to American society and use my educational experiences to help more people, particularly those who did not have the same privileges growing up. I am still uncertain how exactly I would be able to achieve this vision, but I don’t think there’s a rush or high pressure for me to find high-paying positions in an institution after I obtain my degree. I know my visions are idealist and naive, which is exactly why I hope to learn more in college to understand how to turn my dreams into reality. And I want to ensure I find the right place for this specific route.

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Just to clarify - if you do go into academia, it is most likely that you will never have a high position at any point in the future.

Average salary for an assistant professor in Sociology is around $65,00,
An associate professor (after 6 years, if you get tenure) is $74,000,
A full professor, which is a minimum of 6 years, the average is $92,000, and it won’t go up much after that.
For Comp Lit,
An assistant prof gets on average $60,000,
An associate prof $69,000, and
Aa full prof gets $87,000.

If that’s what you want to do, those salaries are enough, but don’t build long-term finances based on getting a high salary as a professors

Not easy, and there really is no way that you can do both that and academia. Neither will leave you with the additional time that you will need. WIth hard work and passion, you’ll probably be able to be a playwright, or an academic. Being both is just too much for almost anybody.

To be honest, if you’re really good as a playwright, you could probably pick up some gigs as an adjunct, but as a TT faculty member, you probably will not have the time to write plays, at least for the first 15 years or so.

As a spot of optimism - I’ve given you the most common scenario. However, you are also going to a colleges which will set you up for a better scenario. That will require work and passion, which you seem to have. There are also many very good jobs for people with PhDs that don’t involve academia that should always be on your mind.

However, all of that is in the future. At the present, you have three amazing acceptances, and you need to choose one. Start planning to visit them.

Congratulations, by the way, for that, and good luck!

You can come back here in a few years to ask about PhD programs if you still want to do one.

PS. While I always recommend that a high school student not build their high school based on “getting into a good college”, setting up your undergrad to best position yourself for going on to do a PhD is a very good idea.

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Perhaps this student will become a tenured professor, or something entirely different. Regardless, OP is clearly top notch and will do well in whatever path she chooses. Right now, I am not sure it’s beneficial to consider a future career path in hypothetical dollars and cents. It sets up a barrier to pursuing genuine interests, which can lead to success. Maybe the OP can shape her life as she goes along. She is 17 and doesn’t have to know her exact future earnings and career path.

OP, one thing is nearly certain if you attend Swarthmore. You are going to get excellent advising and have access to great resources, professor recommendations, internships, jobs, and alumni connections. At this stage, I actually think it’s fine for you to choose a college based on what you want to pursue. You are going to do very well for yourself, especially in the right environment for you.

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Choose Swat. It clearly resonates and you don’t have finances to worry about. Sure, most people couldn’t do that, but you are in a unique position.

Anecdotally, years ago, my husband and I sold our NYC apartment to a young writer who was an adjunct at columbia. She was very much subsidized by her family, as the sale of the coop required an all cash offer at the time (the financial collapse of the banks in 2008/09 meant that banks weren’t offering mortgages to small coop buildings). Her family paid several hundred thousand in cash for the sale .

Having an apartment outright, with a tiny maintenance fee, along with support from her family (I imagine in a trust fund), meant she was free to pursue her writing dreams without regard for salary. And today she is a successful freelance journalist by any measure. I’ve kept up with her career a bit because I was fascinated by whole thing. I’m also a writer but have had to hustle and find corporate applications for my writing career. I love my job but this woman was living a dream life in my view. I hope that happens for you, op! You might be a little more service oriented, but, regardless, Swat is likely where you want to be.

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But there are exceptions, Paula Vogel jumps immediately to mind.

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I’ll also note that for academics in artistic or literary disciplines, producing creative works or performances are often considered scholarship in accordance with standards for tenure and productivity, so if she achieves her dream and is a professor in a literary or artistic field, then she wouldn’t have to wait long to start writing or producing plays. Of course, that’s all a big “if,” and it’s entirely hypothetical. As @Lindagaf points out, none of it really matters. OP is 17 and just trying to figure out where to go to college. The rest will sort itself out.

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My DD turned down the same scholarship to go to a school that was a better fit for her, and it sounds like that would be easier for OP financially than it was for us, so it’s clearly a valid option. And probably the most attractive one, with the boyfriend nearby.

But I do think she would be wise to take a good look at Thematic Option, as others have recommended. It’s USC’s honors program designed “to facilitate a love of learning and nurture intellectual curiosity,” and to provide “the benefits of a small liberal arts college in a big research university.” What is Thematic Option and Why You Should Sign Up — Trojans360

If she can get the vibe and intellectual rigor she’s looking for, with like-minded classmates (because only like-minded classmates would sign up for TO), better weather and free tuition… what’s not to love?

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The thematic option sounds like a great program, and there is no doubt that tuition-free (not entirely free) for USC is amazing, but there is a major difference between socializing in a smaller circle with extra work and joining a community where everyone on campus engages that way.

From the link…

One common thing said of TO is that there is a lot of reading and writing involved. While there is certainly more of that than the average GE, the workload (and even the class format) greatly varies from one professor to another. For example, last semester I may or may not have gotten by only reading one of the assigned readings, but this semester I had to read most everything I was assigned in order to get the most out of the class and understand what’s going on. So my main point is that everyone in TO is going to have really different experiences, so the main thing is to research your professor before choosing a class and choose a topic you’re genuinely interested in exploring.

That variation in experience isn’t a worry at Swarthmore.

The options available to the OP have material differences beyond weather.

This is one of the best comments. I know most are helpfully trying to exclude $ from the decision because OP says it is no issue, but this is very pertinent to her post-bacc career path of doctoral studies/writing in NYC. Would be extremely helpful to have $250K left over in 529 to find PhD, writing fellowships etc. How much can a high school kid truly understand about their parents’ current and future finances and stability? To say “they’re happy to support my dreams as far as that may require” assumes circumstances will not change, and some kids will also feel less comfortable being heavily dependent on their parents into their late 20s (I realize some may have little problem with it though!). My parents did not give me any $ restrictions when they were full pay and I chose a T10 private over flagship public, but because of that I did not ask them for any support during graduate work or med school. Just got those loans paid off last week :slight_smile:

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This is a cc myth I think. Graduate students I know in phd programs don’t live luxuriously but their parents don’t pay tuition or living expenses- this is covered by grants and TA jobs.

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Which part is a myth? There are a great many grad and professional programs that are not covered by grants and TA jobs.

I think most PhD programs are funded. Masters and professional not so much. OP mentioned wanting to be a professor. She might have to grab a masters on the way to be more competitive in the applicant pool, but not necessarily.

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I appreciate it can be difficult to imagine, but there are some folks for whom money just isn’t an issue. No long-term commitment to saving or a 529…just writing checks. “Pick a school and send me the bill” sort of parents. If the OP says don’t worry about the money, why continue to suggest that she should be concerned?

Kids don’t usually know the details, but they have a sense of financial resources by middle school. Clothing, vacations, the family home, restaurant meals, vacation homes, grandparents’ homes, cars…they know.

One of my daughters made a mid-December suggestion to a high school friend who was unsure of where to apply for college. She said… “I see you at XXXX” after an overnight and 2 visits. A few days later, he asked her if she wanted to go visit the school with him on Saturday. The school is 6-7 hours from home, and she told him “she didn’t have the time to spend the weekend visiting a school she wasn’t going to apply to…”. His response “We’ll be gone for about 4 or 5 hours…we’re taking my father’s plane”.

She didn’t go, because she didn’t want to influence his decision. He graduated from that school…loved his time there… and is now digging wells and teaching school for the Peace Corps in Africa. His parents have their house up for sale… $24.9M. They paid millions for 6 kids in private school (k-12), college, and grad/med school education. No savings…no 529’s… just a lot of money.

I’m taking the OP on her word to ignore money. I’m guessing she knows the deal.

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OP’s career goal (as she stated) doesn’t involve professional schools. Her goal in academia almost certainly requires a PhD. All worthwhile PhD programs are funded with either research assistantship, teaching assistantship, fellowship, or some combination of them.

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