Swarthmore vs USC

College Search & Selection
21

<p>Nor did you ‘take’ anyone else’s spot at Swarthmore. Swarthmore, like all schools, is well aware that 100% of those admitted won’t matriculate which is why they admit more than they expect to show up. And it’s why they have a waiting list. There is no reason whatsoever to feel like you can’t apply to a more selective school and then turn it down for a less selective school if the fit is better.</p>

<p>I also think listening to your gut (assuming your brain has already done its part) is a good idea. Fit matters, especially at a small school like Swarthmore. If you don’t feel the fit, and you have other good choices, then you shouldn’t go.</p>

22

<p>I can completely relate to this thread; after weeks of stressing about college decisions I chose USC over Wellesley. It’s all about the gut feeling; I don’t regret my decision a bit! I’m glad I’ve found other people who had to choose between the “Big Research University” and the “Small LAC”!</p>

23

<p>Atelophobia, </p>

<p>You seem a perceptive, very bright individual who knows herself well. You have successfully fended off some of the most aggressive and biased posters. What seems to be reflected in the aggressive posts you received is the recognition and impact on some of the less secure contributors from those schools most impacted by USC’s rise (Stanford, UCLA Cal regionally). Similar posts that you received from the same few individuals are evident in response to numerous posters.</p>

<p>There seems to be a palpable sense of the vibrancy and rise of USC when on campus, along with the data you cite. You have noted programs such as the USC thematic options which provides a LAC experience. My daughter was planning to attend Stanford until visiting at admit weekend, then revisiting USC (along with much time other time on both campuses, contact with students and alums and research). She chose USC, much as you did.</p>

<p>I am impressed by the extent you were not swayed by the insecurities of the USC detractors. It does seem on an intuitive level you judged these to be indirect evidence of USC’s rising stature and current place among other colleges and universities.</p>

24

<p>@Fliqer "You must be from CA…because only CA people think USC is an high level institution "</p>

<p>I’m from Cali and most of my buds don’t even believe USC is a high level institution, it’s mostly famous for its sports and film school. Stanford, Caltech, the Claremont colleges, and probably the top 5 UCs (Berkeley, LA, SD, Davis, SB) are better than USC imo.</p>

25

<p>Wonderva, </p>

<p>Perhaps you and your buds should examine USC Admit SAT scores which are higher than all the UC’s (yes Berkeley included) and equivalent to Claremont McKenna which you reference. The remainder of the UC’s fall quite far down the list.</p>

<p>:<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1364300-325-most-selective-schools-ranked-sat-75th-percentile.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1364300-325-most-selective-schools-ranked-sat-75th-percentile.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The biases and misinformation for you and your buds are shining brightly!</p>

26

<p>This ranking is especially valuable since it allows comparisons among LAC and university students. It will be valuable to view relative changes over time, such as the composition of the USC class of 2016 with an 18% admit rate relative to 23% the prior year.</p>

27

<p>For wonderva and his buds, here is the ranking by college/university for ACT scores. Note USC’s rankings relative to the Ivy’s and all the UC’s:</p>

<p>Here is a ranking by 75th percentile ACT for those schools with at least 30% of the incoming class reporting SAT.</p>

<p>ACT comp 25th, ACT comp 75th, school name, percent reporting ACT</p>

<p>33 35 Harvey Mudd College 40
34 35 California Institute of Technology 38
32 35 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 32
31 35 Princeton University 31
30 34 Vanderbilt University 65
32 34 Washington University in St Louis 63
31 34 University of Notre Dame 51
30 34 University of Chicago 49
30 34 Rice University 46
30 34 Duke University 44
31 34 Pomona College 43
30 34 University of Pennsylvania 38
31 34 Stanford University 37
30 34 Amherst College 35
31 34 Harvard University 32
30 34 Yale University 32
30 34 Williams College 30
31 33 Northwestern University 62
29 33 Carleton College 58
29 33 University of Southern California 42
29 33 Johns Hopkins University 40
30 33 Middlebury College 39
30 33 Reed College 39
29 33 Swarthmore College 37
29 33 Brown University 37
29 33 Cornell University 36
29 33 Vassar College 36
30 33 Bowdoin College 33
29 33 Carnegie Mellon University 30
27 32 Hendrix College 80
26 32 University of Tulsa 67
26 32 Wheaton College 65
28 32 Case Western Reserve University 62
28 32 Macalester College 57
28 32 Davidson College 50
28 32 Colorado College 50
29 32 Washington and Lee University 49
29 32 Tulane University of Louisiana 49
29 32 United States Air Force Academy 49
28 32 Grinnell College 45
28 32 Kenyon College 45
28 32 Scripps College 44
28 32 Wellesley College 42
28 32 Oberlin College 42
29 32 University of Rochester 38
26 32 University of California-Berkeley 37
28 32 College of William and Mary 37
28 32 University of Miami 37
28 32 Barnard College 35
29 32 Colgate University 32
28 32 University of Virginia-Main Campus 30
26 31 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 99
26 31 Illinois Wesleyan University 96
26 31 Colorado School of Mines 91
26 31 St. Olaf College 85
27 31 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 80
26 31 Centre College 71
25 31 Illinois Institute of Technology 69
27 31 New College of Florida 57
25 31 The University of Texas at Austin 50
27 31 Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus 49
24 31 University of California-Los Angeles 44
27 31 University of Richmond 42
27 31 Whitman College 40
27 31 Bucknell University 40
28 31 Colby College 39
26 31 American University 38
28 31 Villanova University 37
27 31 Trinity University 34
26 31 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 33
28 31 Northeastern University 31
27 31 Occidental College 31
27 31 Brandeis University 30
25 30 Truman State University 96
24 30 Drake University 96
26 30 Brigham Young University 94
25 30 University of Minnesota-Twin Cities 93
26 30 University of Wisconsin-Madison 89
24 30 Saint Louis University-Main Campus 86
26 30 Ohio State University-Main Campus 84
24 30 Auburn University 80
26 30 Kalamazoo College 77
25 30 United States Military Academy 74
26 30 Rhodes College 73
25 30 University of Denver 73
24 30 Cornell College 72
24 30 Beloit College 68
25 30 Furman University 63
25 30 Butler University 62
25 30 Southern Methodist University 57
25 30 United States Coast Guard Academy 55
24 30 Southwestern University 55
26 30 Sewanee-The University of the South 54
24 30 University of Dallas 51
25 30 The University of Texas at Dallas 50
26 30 University of Puget Sound 50
25 30 Grove City College 46
23 30 New Saint Andrews College 45
26 30 Santa Clara University 44
24 30 University of California-San Diego 40
27 30 Denison University 39
27 30 Willamette University 38
27 30 SUNY at Geneseo 37
26 30 Lafayette College 36
26 30 Boston University 36
26 30 Bryn Mawr College 35
25 30 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus 35
25 30 Emerson College 34
26 30 Skidmore College 33
26 30 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 31
26 30 Fordham University 31
24 30 Texas A & M University 31
27 30 SUNY at Binghamton 30
24 29 Transylvania University 95
24 29 The University of Tennessee 95
23 29 Michigan Technological University 94
22 29 Union University 94
24 29 Milwaukee School of Engineering 94
24 29 Luther College 93
24 29 Marquette University 92
24 29 Ohio Northern University 92
24 29 Hope College 92
25 29 Loyola University Chicago 92
22 29 University of Alabama in Huntsville 92
24 29 Kettering University 90
24 29 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 87
24 29 Creighton University 87
23 29 University of Oklahoma Norman Campus 86
24 29 Millsaps College 86
24 29 Miami University-Oxford 84
23 29 Samford University 84
24 29 Birmingham Southern College 83
23 29 Calvin College 82
23 29 Belmont University 78
23 29 Ohio Wesleyan University 68
24 29 Loyola University New Orleans 66
24 29 DePauw University 64
24 29 The College of Wooster 60
24 29 California Polytechnic State University-San Luis Obispo 60
25 29 University of Georgia 54
24 29 Indiana University-Bloomington 53
24 29 University of South Carolina-Columbia 52
24 29 Rollins College 51
24 29 Gonzaga University 51
23 29 Westmont College 50
23 29 Purdue University-Main Campus 49
23 29 Texas Christian University 49
25 29 Loyola Marymount University 48
25 29 Chapman University 48
23 29 University of California-Santa Barbara 47
25 29 University of San Diego 47
23 29 Berry College 46
23 29 Florida Institute of Technology 46
24 29 Baylor University 45
24 29 Earlham College 44
24 29 Allegheny College 43
23 29 University of California-Davis 42
24 29 Seattle University 39
23 29 Clarkson University 39
23 29 Whitworth University 38
23 29 Mercer University 32
23 28 University of Missouri-Columbia 97
23 28 William Jewell College 97
23 28 University of St Thomas 96
22 28 University of Nebraska-Lincoln 95
23 28 Coe College 94
23 28 University of Minnesota-Morris 94
25 28 Albion College 94
23 28 University of Arkansas 92
22 28 Lipscomb University 90
21 28 University of Louisville 89
23 28 Louisiana State University and Agricultural & Mechanical College 87
22 28 Oklahoma City University 84
22 28 Xavier University 81
23 28 University of Colorado Boulder 74
24 28 Cedarville University 73
23 28 Wofford College 67
23 28 Franciscan University of Steubenville 66
23 28 University of Evansville 64
22 28 Wittenberg University 63
22 28 Covenant College 61
23 28 Austin College 58
22 28 Wabash College 55
24 28 Florida State University 53
23 28 Point Loma Nazarene University 50
22 28 Oglethorpe University 49
22 28 Hanover College 48
24 28 University of Central Florida 47
22 28 Abilene Christian University 45
21 28 Goshen College 43
22 28 Seattle Pacific University 42
23 28 University of California-Irvine 41
22 28 University of California-Santa Cruz 41</p>

28

<p>Meh…</p>

<p>docfreedaddy, you shouldn’t have mentioned the UC’s in your post #23. I hope you don’t end up regretting this. ;)</p>

<p>That link you provided in #24, ?, shows the wide net that is cast on the reporting of SATI scores by the universities involved. The same applies to ACT scores in their composites.</p>

<p>Public universities, including Cal and UCLA don’t superscore. Superscoring adds material amount to scores, say, ~ 60 points or so on average, and specifically even more for wealthier students who retake and re-prep for the SAT test. </p>

<p>Retaking is significant because the greater times the test is taken by a student provides a greater opportunity for him/her (and therefore a private u) to cherry-pick top component scores; and re-prepping is likewise, because this helps accustom a student to the test, in addition helps lead the student to a deeper prepping of those parts in which he/she did poorly. Added, a good SAT tutor should generally help a student ascend his/her score by 100-300 points, based on his/her original baseline score, even if his/her original preparation was at a decently high level. </p>

<p>These advantages for the wealthier student lead generally to topped-out, mature scores for him/her, with is probably in many cases too high for this student’s true aptitude because it doesn’t reflect real aptitude and in many cases just how to take the test. (This doesn’t apply to those who naturally score extremely high with only one take and lesser prep, your future Harvard or Cal Tech students.)</p>

<p>In contrast, poorer students are more inclined to take the test only once with little or poorer preparation, so these students tend to post “immature,” more raw scores, which can easily be ascended much higher by better prep and more retakes. </p>

<p>Clearly, Cal and UCLA take a larger set of poorer students than USC, as manifest by the % of students who are awarded Pell grants to each as compared to USC. Those of wealthier background at each of these UC’s will have higher scores and grades than their USC counterparts. </p>

<p>Added to the above, UCLA, as manifest by its reporting of specific numbers related to the SAT (and ACT), reports redundant scores for a good % of its students. A student on the UCLA board reported both a 1700 (perhaps 1700++) and 31 ACT. (My guess is he/she took the SATI first and posted that score and later switched and perhaps re-prepped and scored the 31 on the ACT.) UCLA reports both 1700++ and 31 on the CDS (and IPEDS), though the 31 was a much better score and was the score that helped him/her gain admission. </p>

<p>I’m not sure if other public universities do this, because there is no other U that is transparent as UCLA wrt specific numbers who’ve scored within specific intervals of each test – not to be confused with reporting of general statistics of students who’ve taken both – eg, 80% who’ve taken SAT and 45% who’ve taken the ACT – – but we know that UCLA, from the above, purposely tries to under-report scores, probably because diversity indices to the U are most important to it (them: the administration), overriding the importance of the U reporting ascendant admission standards, which means manifesting lower scores to “help” the psyche of students from poorer (socio)economic backgrounds in applying to the U, instead of deterring them (scaring them away), as well as the eventual help they need to eventually gain admission to the U.</p>

<p>But it’s typical of a USC affiliated person to point to specific scores, inputs if you will, and not outputs of graduates. The beauty is those of lower scores, naturally attained, can be taught up to do better often times than those who have unnaturally attained higher scores. You have been trained very well. ;)</p>

29

<p>Thank you drax12:</p>

<p>I have been looking for a study comparing superscores vs. non for a large sample, but have not found any. Do you have a reference? I do not want to rely on conjecture.</p>

<p>How about we just contrast USC with Johns Hopkins, Swarthmore, Brown and Cornell? </p>

<p>29 33 University of Southern California 42
29 33 Johns Hopkins University 40
29 33 Swarthmore College 37
29 33 Brown University 37
29 33 Cornell University 36</p>

<p>24 31 UCLA 44</p>

<p>You can also try your thesis about the superiority of UCLA in relation to those institutions and there will be no need to be concerned about the usual UCLA bias in relation to USC. I suggest you also post your analysis to the Swarthmore, Brown, Johns Hopkins and Cornell cc sites for feedback to see how well you are trained.</p>

30

<p>^^^ The whole point was that the UC’s do not weigh standardized tests as much as they do HS GPA’s. That, aside from the fact that the UC’s do not superscore.</p>

<p>On topic: Either USC or Swarthmore would be a good pick. But personally, I’d pick USC over Swarthmore because it is in California, and USC alumni in California, especially in SoCal, are close-knit, loyal and thriving. If you’ll do good at USC, you’ll go places.</p>

31

<p>

</p>

<p>An inconclusive rule of thumb is apparently to add ~ 20 points on average to each section. But as I stated, with wealthier students, this could/should be higher. Especially for those trying to market themselves to the colleges because of lower class rank. Generally, those of lower class rank, score lower than their higher ranked classmates, but they need higher scores to gain admission into a ranked U. This means more retakes, greater preparation -> greater displacement between natural and posted scores.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Easy… </p>

<p>Hopkins, Brown, except for legacies … and to some degree, Cornell and maybe Swarthmore, live predominantly in the top-decile of students. I have to involve USC… this U does not. </p>

<p>I would put ~ 80% of UCLA and Cal students as being top-decile (both report 97%+), a very high %, among the highest in the nation. USC reports mid 80s for its incoming frosh? Actual for this U, based on some of the better high schools I’ve seen that db schools chosen by its students and grades/scores posted for these would probably be ~ 50% for USC. This is because USC regards quality of school, and tries to load up on students from top preps from eastern to western US. Top students from these top preps usually choose Ivies, including Brown, maybe Hopkins, certainly MIT, Stanford.</p>

<p>Some of these prep students who choose USC, are those who need to market themselves by higher scores, which includes that cycle of retake and re-prep.</p>

<p>Look at the graduates of UCLA, Cal and USC. Cal is best in the country in pure nos. of bac to PHD conversions within STEM. UCLA is ~ 10th. USC doesn’t appear to be anywhere. UCLA and Cal are pre-professional beasts for m, l, and b schools. USC is good in the latter, but can’t come close to comparingto UCLA or Cal in the former two.</p>

<p>Look at intellectualism on campus of all three. Cal is probably higher than UCLA perceivably, but USC is probably best described as having an anti-intellectualism. Drinking is fairly rampant. Drinking is everywhere at all u’s, but football tends to lend itself to even more at USC. Thursday-Saturday or Sunday, the campus is rife with drunken students.</p>

<p>The students at Cal and UCLA certainly study more than their USC counterparts. I propose that UCLA is more accelerated than Cal because the former is on the fast-paced quarter system.</p>

<p>My main point is you can’t compare USC with Hopkins, Brown, Swarthmore, Cornell, wrt academics. Scores are only a portion of a total student’s presentation. I believe UCLA’s students have much greater potential than USC’s, despite the latter probably having legitimately higher scores because of the extra component in UCLA admissions of exceptions for poorer students, and not caring about reporting ascendant scores.</p>

<p>Also, UC, Texas-Austin have found that higher scores don’t benefit the students over the long haul. Grades for all these have greater importance in college performance because grades represent a longer, more noted accomplishment.</p>

32

<p>

</p>

<p>USC awards ~ 1,200 bac degrees in business each year of its ~5000 graduates. They like to flood the business sector. But a lot of these are looking for work five months post graduation. I suppose the higher-ranked grads, absolutely.</p>

33

<p>As we were watching UCLA get smoked by USC, a friend said to me, “USC students drink like they’re at an SEC school.” I nodded, and said, with maybe to the exclusion of Vandy…</p>

34

<p>^^^ Yeah, but if you’ll end up graduating in the top 5%, for example, you’ll be very fine.</p>

35

<p>drax12,</p>

<p>I am sorry to say I have a hard time taking you seriously, but you seem to more than enough for both of us. It might have been best to just say you know of no study comparing superscores and non, as most of what you presented simply represents the usual UCLA bias and conjecture.</p>

36

<p>RML,</p>

<p>It seems to me that whole “alumni network” may have been overhyped by USC. USC is a good school but also seems to be not shy about making dubious claims. Some examples:</p>

<p>

[USC</a> Admission & Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.usc.edu/admission/]USC”>http://www.usc.edu/admission/)
If “academic opportunities” means number of disciplines, I think schools like UMich would have more. LA is hardly a “world center”.</p>

<p>

This is factually incorrect and it’s what got them into trouble with USN grad school ranking couple years ago. They have since sent the more correct percentage (reduced by almost 2/3) to USN; yet, they still display this claim prominantly on their website.
[USC</a> - Viterbi School of Engineering - Academics](<a href=“http://viterbi.usc.edu/academics/]USC”>http://viterbi.usc.edu/academics/)</p>

<p>Back to the “Trojan Family” claim. There seems to be a disconnect between that claim and their employment reports. For a class with GMAT at around 690, the salaries seem to be on the low side, considering the location. [USC</a> Marshall Employment Report 2010-2011](<a href=“USC Marshall”>USC Marshall)</p>

<p>For comparison, here’s the report for UCLA Anderson. Granted, Anderson has stronger reputation with stronger incoming class but I’d expect the salary gap would be smaller if the alumni network is really as strong as I heard of. <a href=“http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/Documents/areas/adm/cmc/EmploymentReport.pdf[/url]”>http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/Documents/areas/adm/cmc/EmploymentReport.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

37

<p>^^^ I won’t argue with that, Sam Lee. And, I applaud you for the job well done. My only excitement about USC is the lively and thriving atmosphere they have on campus, not to mention, USC has a really nice campus landscape. The alumni network is somewhat over-hyped, that’s true, but one cannot deny that there really is a close-knit Trojan family that exist in Socal. As to where that networking extends, I don’t know anymore.</p>

38

<p>UCLA and Cal did not need to be brought up in this thread.</p>

<p>Give it a rest and ■■■■■ Cal and UCLA threads.</p>