<p>At the suggestion of another poster, I'm starting this thread to invite further discussion of the particular qualities that distinguish these schools from one another. Obviously, just as the Ivies aren't all the same, and all the big state schools aren't the same, the small LACs aren't all the same, either. </p>
<p>To pick up on what's been said on this topic so far, start at Post #22 in the Admissions Video thread.</p>
<p>Any other thoughts? Observations? Experiences?</p>
<p>This has been discussed to a great great extent in the past. Here are some forum archives:
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/64692.html%5B/url%5D">www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/64692.html</a>
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/87733.html%5B/url%5D">www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/87733.html</a>
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/76907.html%5B/url%5D">www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/76907.html</a>
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/62168.html%5B/url%5D">www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/62168.html</a></p>
<p>Here is more:
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/64692.html%5B/url%5D">www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/5/64692.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=11914%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=11914</a></p>
<p>In the last one, there is a great post by Mini on what the 3 LACs are good at (see post #12). The last one is indeed very good at highlighting the differences academically.</p>
<p>Thanks, achat :)</p>
<p>Mini's summary is quite good. As far as academic strengths, I'm not sure he quite communicated Swarthmore's strengths in the social sciences. Swarthmore produces more future PhD.s in Economics, Political Science, and Social Sciences overall than any other college or university in the country. Economics, Political Science, Bio, and English Lit are consistently the four most popular majors. Econ is always number one, the others swap places year to year -- not really surprising, I expect these are the four "biggies" at many colleges.</p>
<p>Also, it's probably important to point out that Swarthmore has a very rigorous Engineering department that has been around since the late 1800s. They offer an ABET accredited BS degree in Engineering.</p>
<p>Academically, the most unique thing about Swarthmore is its Honors Program. Started shortly after WWI, this program is small seminar-based and requires a Senior Thesis. It concludes with examination (both written and oral) by a panel of three or more outside experts, each covering a different topic of concentration in the major. There is no Honors or Distinction awarded based on grades at Swat; only through this special Honors program. About one-third of the graduates last year received honors.</p>
<p>On study abroad: Mini is probably correct that Swat is not most famous for this. However, that may understate Swat's study abroad programs. About 40% of the students study abroad. The cost of overseas study is included in Swat's tuition; thus all financial aid travels with the student. Swat operates its own programs in France, Ghana, and Poland. It has special relationships with consortium programs in Chile, Sri Lanka, Spain, England, Ireland, Sweden, and South Africa. It has recommended programs in virtually every country in the world.</p>
<p>I believe that the real difference in the top liberal arts colleges have more to do with campus culture than anything else. With that in mind, it is probably instructive to look at two specific housing policies at each of the three schools:</p>
<p>First-year housing:</p>
<p>Swarthmore has no freshmen dorms. Freshmen are placed into regular dorms with upperclass students. </p>
<p>Amherst and Williams have segregated freshmen dorms. </p>
<p>Theme housing and segregation</p>
<p>Swarthmore has no "theme" houses and, in fact, the concept of segregating by any characteristic is vigorously rejected by the students and the campus culture -- dating back to the first year of the college when both male and female students ate together in a common dining hall. The housing lottery is set up to essentially prevent segregation (by race, by athletic team affiliation, etc.) and there is virtually no de facto segregation at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Amherst has racial and ethnic theme housing. Williams officially does not have theme housing, but there is a high degree of de facto segregation on campus with dorms that have high concentrations of racial or ethnic groups, males or females, athletes or non-athletes. The college is in the midst of an effort to prevent de facto segregation with a new housing policy, but is encountering heavy student resistance.</p>
<p>Another difference is the Student Health Services available on campus:</p>
<p>Swarthmore:
Health Center is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week</p>
<p>Williams:
Health Center is open 8:30 am to 9:00 pm M-F, 1pm-8pm on weekends.</p>
<p>Amherst:
Heath Center is open 8:50 am to 5:30 pm M-F. No evenings, no weekends.</p>
<p>The Williams Health Center used to be open 24/7. This was changed this year, a decision explained as being due to liability coverage issues surrounding the nature and number of health visits they were seeing at night. I believe Amherst's reduced hours are also a fairly recent change, but I don't know the rationale behind the change.</p>
<p>epistrophy, I think you would get a more balanced view if you would post this question on the Parents board. Or, alternately, try the Williams board for the Eph side of the story.</p>
<p>Momrath:</p>
<p>Feel free to chime in with any corrections.</p>
<p>Momrath:</p>
<p>I think that it's inevitable that if someone has a preference for a particular school - say, Swarthmore - that preference is going to influence in some fashion what he or she has to say when comparing that school to others. But I also think that the views expressed here by interesteddad and others (including those in the archived links provided by achat) have been very informative and helpful for those who, like my son and myself, are relatively new to all this and are trying to find our way when thinking comparatively about these three fine schools. And, yes, in line with your suggestion and in order to obtain a wider range of views, I may well initiate similar threads on the Amherst and Williams boards. At least when you have posts that are as thoughtful as those found here (again, including the archived materials), more is more - right?</p>
<p>Another difference is the Swat strongly encourages admissions interviews and Amherst doesn't offer them. (Don't know about Williams.) My impression is that Swat, like many other LACs, is looking for a good "fit."</p>
<p>In the "take it for what it's worth" category, this is what my son (Swat soph) told me that a Swat senior who has done many many admissions interviews told HIM: That they are really interested in the answer to the "why Swat" question. That she can tell from the answer who really knows what makes Swat tick and would be happy and fit in there--as opposed, I guess, to people who are just applying b/c of Swat's ranking in USNews. </p>
<p>So it sounds to me that yes, you can blow your chances at Swat in the interview.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That they are really interested in the answer to the "why Swat" question.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That was the part of the application that the Admissions Director emphasized in a newspaper interview last year.</p>
<p>Curiously, the Williams app was the only one my daughter filled out that did NOT ask a variation of the Why Us? question.</p>
<p>My S who received an Early Write letter from Williams ran out of steam in December and refused to do the Swarthmore supplement. I wasn't thrilled with this at the time. From the acceptances that he has received thus far my feelings are that the committees are great at seeing who these kids really are without the "Why this School" question. Amherst and Williams does not do interviews. Could it be that they spend a bit more time on the reading of the applications where some of the bigger Ivies don't have the time? This is in no way a knock on Swarthmore but merely a more comfortable feeling that I get from our interaction with some LACs.</p>
<p>Yes. All of the top LACs are pretty good at sizing up the kids. Just the fact of applying to an LAC says a lot about a kid, so there is automatically a high degree of self-selection in the Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, et al applicant pools.</p>
<p>Having said that, Swarthmore places specific emphasis on the "Why Swat?" essay. From the Admissions Dean's comments, there appear to be two reasons:</p>
<p>a) It makes it easy to separate out the casual applicant from the applicant who has really taken the time to understand something about the unique qualities of the school -- above and beyond the obvious "great academics, pretty campus, near Philly".</p>
<p>b) Swarthmore functions because it has a very specific kind of student body and a degree of student responsibility that allows the college community to be largely self-governing and the academics to be highly student driven. There are few "rules" and the administration takes a hands-off approach. They are looking for a critical mass of kids who will fit this profile and perpetuate the prevailing campus culture. The "Why Swat?" essay is good vehicle for identifying some of those characteristics. The handful of successful "Why Swat?" essays I've read have been very insightful about the school and how the student would fit.</p>
<p>Sorry if my previous message was unclear. I was talking about the "Why Swarthmore" question at the interview rather than the supplemental essay in the app--though both are looking for the same thing I guess.</p>
<p>At my son's interview, the interviewer actually preempted his planned answer--"So why are you interested in Swarthmore? Beyond that it's one of the few LACs that offer engineering?"--but he must have improvised something that was acceptable. So I guess the moral is be sure to have a detailed, well thought out answer to that question before the interview. </p>
<p>Quite a few parents on this board and not so many students--I guess we love this school. Looking forward to Parents' Weekend which Swat, unlike everyone else, has in April.</p>
<p>I don't mean this to sound flip, but do your kids - and the other students you know - seem to love the school as much as many of you parents do? </p>
<p>I ask this in part because when I last visited the campus it seemed in certain respects like a rather joyless environment (or at least that seemed to be one plausible reading). I saw very, very few students out and about - there was almost a deserted feeling to the place. Those students that I did see, more often than not, were walking by themselves. And when we sat in on a morning class, the students' faces suggested sleep deprivation more than anything else.</p>
<p>I don't know.....if I gave the impression that it is eternal sunshine all the time at Swat, it isn't. It is an intense place and my son complains at times. For example, he wanted to go to Philly or come home, I forget what sometime last month. He couldn't because he had 2 papers due and exams. He complained bitterly to me about it. </p>
<p>You might have visited during one of these times, and it is going to be like that. </p>
<p>The food is also not that good according to my son. There are other choices besides Sharples and he takes advantage of that. You have to ask other parents (since it is only us posting) but my son's food bill is pretty high because he does not eat at Sharples.</p>
<p>Then there was last semester's Bio course that my son was taking to fulfill 'science requirements'. He found it exceedingly hard, partly because it was at a much higher level than HS and he did not expect it and partly because I think he did not make much of an effort. Thankfully, it was pass/fail and he did pass! But the questions in the finals were on the research the professors were doing and if you did not pay attention, then guess what happens?</p>
<p>What he never complains about is the academics. He is not given to hyperbole but according to him 'you find the best discussion in classes at Swarthmore in the entire country'. I believe he has found his niche there. Now if he is reading this and posts, he can confirm that himself.</p>
<p>I think that last impression I get from him (found his niche) makes up for everything else, in my mind. </p>
<p>There are a few other complaints:
1) sometimes the discussion gets too intense because everyone is such a nerd.
2) He dropped out of the "Existentialism" class because even though he is interested in the subject, there were 30 other people in the class (30!) and some people seem claim to have read Nietzche in their mother's womb! He took something else.
3) There are all kinds of wierdo causes that people subscribe to.
4) Some people have no healthy skepticism for every cause on this planet.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't mean this to sound flip, but do your kids - and the other students you know - seem to love the school as much as many of you parents do?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mine does. Loves the college. Loves her many friends. Loves her classes. I'm not talking flippant comments, but serious, almost tearing-up, when she talks about how much she enjoys it.</p>
<p>I don't think that is uncommon. We have encountered it from virtually all Swarthmore alumni.</p>
<p>I asked her to name something that she didn't like. She thought a minute and finally came up with "the food gets a little boring after a while..."</p>
<p>She has only had one sleep-inducing class: her only large lecture class 1st semester - Psych 101 or whatever they call it. Conversely, her large intro lecture class this semester, Intro Art History, doesn't require "pre-gaming" at the Kohlberg coffee bar. She raves about the professor and that course.</p>
<p>She probably would complain about the amount of work she has during mid-term or finals weeks, but we tend not to hear from her those weeks! When I picked her up at the airport after 1st semester finals, she said that she had not pulled any "all-nighters", but that she definitely needed to catch up on some sleep, but I can't imagine a college student finishing finals and NOT being in that boat. </p>
<p>She has been pretty diligent about doing some reading or working on lab report or writing a rough-draft of a paper each time she's been home for a break and she seems to treat Sunday thru Thursday nights as "school nights" for studying. I asked her if she goes to Thursay night "Pub Night" and said, "No...Thursday's a study night."</p>
<p>Overall, her assessment seems to be that the workload is heavy enough that she has to keep chipping away at it, but not backbreaking so far. Of course, she's also been cognizant of balancing her class-load and doing some advance scouting of professors with her senior friends in her dorm. She did rearrange her schedule this semester to avoid a professor scheduled to teach the course this year, but not next.</p>
<p>She took a three-day workshop on study skills at the end of Winter Break and has been applying some of what she learned. For example, she started going to the library after dinner to do her reading because she can get more done without interruptions in the dorm. This from a kid who had never done one minute of schoolwork for 12 years without the TV or the radio or the CD player or the Instant Messenger going in the background.</p>