<p>We were in a similar situation and asked this question to an insider at an Ivy. Stemit is correct - regardless of the vague language that the coach uses about talking to admissions, etc. there is either likely letter or nothing with the ivies. However, sometimes a coach will take a swimmer with high stats to help get another swimmer with lower stats. You may well be more valuable to the teams than you think.
We have just been through this process and met with some of those coaches - feel free to PM me if you have questions. Good luck.</p>
<p>D in similar position to Swim18 - not quite fast enough to recruit but times well in the mix to walk on. Like swim18 strong grades, SATs, ECs, etc. D is also a legacy (dad, granddad, aunts, etc) all attended said Ivy - will that have any impact on recruitability?</p>
<p>You can ask the coach if they have any “grey push”. Some schools explicitly have none (Yale and perhaps others.) Other schools may but in any case, the coach should be honest if they have any actual impact.</p>
<p>This is not from an Ivy and for Crew rather than swimming (though I expect it is is the same): at Stanford my D was told if she hit certain specific targets, since her academics were all well within the norms from an admissions standpoint, the coach would identify her as “recruited walk on” and if her application was in a grey area, that would push her over to accepted. No promises, but that was the most explicit discussion of a grey push we heard.</p>
<p>Hi everybody, I’m a swimmer applying to entrance to college in the fall of 2013. I’ve been in contact with numerous coaches over the past 10 months, mostly Ivys, and paid unofficial visits to most. My SAT scores are pretty good (2130, and SATIIs 710 and 790) with a 4.0 GPA. Recently, I asked the coach of a particularly competitive ivy to whom I should submit an arts supplement and he put me into contact with an admissions officer who is the swimming admissions liaison in the Admissions Office. Would being put into contact with him indicate that I have support, what is it indicative of? (sorry if I overloaded you with information - I want to make sure the situation is clear)</p>
<p>You would know if you are supported if the Ivy coach told you so. You can’t imply the support by the contact provided. When in doubt, ask the coach. Though most likely letters for Ivy swimming are already offered at this time.</p>
<p>But would being in contact with a swimming specific admissions officer not give me a cheerleader, so to speak, in the admissions office for my application?</p>
<p>The only sure thing in Ivy athletic recruitment is a likely letter. There is a limit on how many athletes the coach can support. Beyond that, you are like all other applicants but with a strong swimming EC.</p>
<p>Swimming will be weighted like everything else in your application-a plus, but more like playing the bassoon than a significant boost to your chances.
I wouldn’t hold my breath, and I would have a safety or two.
If you have only had unofficials, the coaches aren’t really wanting you. They may be happy to see you as a “freebie”, but you aren’t in their grand scheme for the team.
You may want to look at some D3 times to see if you can do better elsewhere, but in any division, most(if not all) firm coach support went away with ED.</p>
<p>Pomani - the coach has not offered you anything. Continue to cast a wide net if you want to compete in college. Essentially you are on your own in admissions. To get a feel for your chances look at that school’s results threads on that school’s forum.</p>
<p>Those who say that you can only be sure you are getting any support from an Ivy coach if you get a likely letter are correct. My daughter is a recently graduated Ivy swimmer and she had several club swimming teammates who thought they were getting “some” support, but despite very solid academic credentials and pretty competitive times they were not admitted. Coaches may be happy to have you walk on if you are admitted but beyond their allocated slots coaches can’t do much if anything in admissions.</p>
<p>I recently received a hand written and signed letter in the mail from the Penn head coach saying things like I “am the exact type of student athlete Penn is looking for” and my “times are very impressive” and “hope to see you on campus in the Fall of 2014” and “feel free to email me with questions anytime” and “excited to be able to speak to you on the phone after July 1”. Does this letter demonstrate serious interest from the coach or is it just another one of those letters that 1000s of prospective student athletes get? Penn is very high on my list so naturally I got pretty excited, but I have no idea what this letter actually means… Thoughts?</p>
<p>My son is being recruited by these schools for swimming (as well as some others that probably don’t make his top 3 list. He really likes all of these schools and all the coaches. Any advice?</p>
<p>Swim18: My S is looking at swimming in college and you are not the first person who has talked about this very personal Penn letter. In fact, you quoted the same passages I have heard from another dad whose son swims with my son. Maybe I’m cynical, but I can’t help wondering if these letters are form letters in disguise. Anyone these days can make a letter look like it was hand signed. If I’ve learned anything these past few months is that the real personal messages are just that, personal. They read like they are written by someone who has taken the time to find out real info about the recruit and they rarely contain buzzwords and marketing gobbledygook. Sometimes it’s the two-line e-mail or the simple good luck texted before an exam that speak the loudest.</p>
<p>As for general thoughts on interpreting coaches’ communications and helping our kids along the recruiting path…</p>
<p>My son’s #1 choice sends him just enough well-written and informative form mail to keep him hoping for an OV invite. Meanwhile, his safety (a big state school) communicates with him often and treats him like he’s the best thing since sliced bread. Believe me, you’ll feel the transparency/sincerity when it’s there and once you hear it once, the others will stand out like sore thumbs. I don’t want to discourage my son and tell him he’s being held in a “holding pattern” by school #1 but I have little hope that he’s anywhere on their real radar.</p>
<p>Sometimes, what recruits want and what they get is the same thing. Those recruits are truly fortunate. Based on what I’ve witnessed with my son’s experience though, sometimes what recruits want is just too far out of reach for it to be a right or good fit (though it’s tough for them to see that at 17/18/19 years old). My son will do an OV to the recruiting state school this fall and I bet they will treat him very well. He may be able to get over the fact that it’s not his top choice or he may not. Who knows…</p>
<p>Someone commented earlier in this thread that above all else, passion should drive a choice, not a school’s name, ranking, alum,… I have to agree. In our constant fight to have the best, are we not setting up our kids for eternal self-dissatisfaction? If we lead them to believe they must have the best school, the best SAT, the best GPA, the right car, the right clothes…what happens when life throws them a curve ball? How do they handle that? I may be completely wrong on this, but I have never looked back on my run-of-the-mill college choice and regretted that I didn’t go to a prestigious top tier school. In the end, I hope my son is able to tune out all the noise and listen to his gut. Does it feel right? Does it feel like it can be a happy and supportive place? Above all else, those things will determine the agree to which he will be successful or not, both in and out of the classroom/pool.</p>
<p>When I interview college grads in my line of business and hear their 5-year plan that takes them from entry level to CEO, it just proves that we are creating a generation that will be very successful at failing to be happy and contented.</p>
<p>A little off-topic, admittedly, but I can’t help but wonder if in trying to give our kids the best, we’ve robbed them of the ability to just be normal and OK.</p>
<p>Swimdad2014;</p>
<p>Although I have a girl, we have experience with all three of your coaches, and know swimmers on each of the teams. Please feel free to PM me with your questions, and I am happy to give you our perspective of the programs.</p>
<p>FanInTheStands, thanks for sharing. Your post is a healthy reminder about the kids making a choice that will keep them happy for the next 4-5 years. Where we come from, transfers are very rare, so you either make the right choice, or you are miserable for the next 3-4 years, or you drop out. I hope that I can keep this same perspective when my son applies to US colleges next year.</p>
<p>Thanks swim4school. I guess I don’t have enough posts yet to be able to send a PM. My son is a fairly conservative kid. He is very social but is not a partier and really doesn’t want to be in an environment where there is a lot of peer pressure to do that stuff. I really have three questions:
- What is the party scene like at each of the schools and, more importantly, on each of the teams? His teammates will very likely be his social circle and he wants to make sure they are a good fit. He is going to do an official visit at each school.
- What are the coaches like? As I mentioned, he has met all of the coaches this summer on unofficial visits and really liked all of them. He doesn’t like dictatorial coaches, although he is fine with coaches who are strict and structured. He just likes a more collaborative approach to figuring out what creates the best results for his training.
- Whether to swim Division I versus Division III? He junior year times are fast enough to have qualified for a couple of events for 2013 NCAAs Division III, but obviously not DI. I must say, I have a bias for swimming DIII unless you are an Olympian but I was not a swimmer and there may be other considerations I am unaware of. He doesn’t mind and is expecting a very heavy training schedule wherever he goes. In fact, it will probably be a little lighter than what his club has now due to NCAA weekly time restrictions.</p>
<p>Thanks for your (and anyone else’s) thoughts!</p>
<p>The party culture question can only be answered after the official visits. I am sure your son will be observant enough to know if it’s a good fit socially and culturally after the visit. It’s meaningless to talk about the culture of a school generally versus the swim team as they don’t necessarily reflect one another. S visited one that looked good on paper in everything but knew right away that it was not a good fit for him in terms of team culture. PM me when you can if you have other questions. S is at the last stage of the swimming recruitment process. </p>
<p>Also, sometimes they want to go D1 is not about how much training etc. If all these schools are all great academically (e.g., Ivies, S, and similar ones), it’s more about self actualization, they want to see how far they can go in an environment that is supposed to nurture that athletic talent. I as a parent can’t take that away from my child.</p>
<p>SwimDad2014;</p>
<p>First, congratulations to your son for being so dedicated to his sport that he is able to swim at the collegiate level. Second, note that the information below is our opinion only. We have a conservative non-drinking daughter, looked at some D3 and D1 programs, and selected schools to do OV that were academically a match first, and athletically a match second. (Post college, she needs to get a job or go to grad school.)</p>
<p>Once again, impressions only:</p>
<p>1) Party scene. Your son will be able to judge this to some extent on OV, but there is a strong slant towards non-drinking (officially at least) activities on the visits. He’ll have to read through the lines to see what real life is like. Davidson is only 20 minutes from Charlotte, so there are party opportunities on campus, but also in town. The others are more remote.</p>
<p>On partying–I will offer up that on each swim team, including my daughter’s current college team, there is a strong partying group and a non or very light partying group. The teams seem to hang out together in “neutral activities” and then splinter off if they are drinking or not. The non-drinkers seem to be having plenty of fun, but there are significantly less of them than the other group. Also, some of the non-drinkers seem to attend parties but just not drink, and it works for them.</p>
<p>2) On the coaches–all three groups of coaches are excellent. I look back at their conduct with our D, and they were all very gracious to her (even when she turned their schools down) and very interested in her making the correct selection for her. I would really encourage you to do some quick research to see what the swimmers in your son’s specialty (or soon to be specialty, since in college, it happens) swam in SCY at the end of their high school career, and how fast they are now. You can use this as a guide, although you can’t control for injuries, heavy courseloads, etc. I haven’t done this for boys, but on the girls side, Kenyon wins hands down. </p>
<p>I’d also push hard on culture of the team. Kenyon can train long distance swimmers very well, and the program is set up to do so. Davidson sprints. Very well. But, if you are a mid or distance swimmer, you might do some close evaluation. </p>
<p>We know swimmers on all three teams–and all are very happy with their choices; and each are majoring in their selected major of choice. No stories on these teams of not being able to be a science major because of swimming demands. </p>
<p>3) D1 vs D3–there is this “prestige” or “bragging rights” thing that gets in the kids heads on D1 swimming. Your son has to get past that, and select a school that is right for him. The three schools you chose are going to have pretty equal training demands (within the guidelines of NCAA). Dryland, doubles, weights are all a part of each week. I think where the real difference comes in is when you are looking at D3 vs bigger D1 schools like ACC, SEC, or Ivys. Then the demands of swimming are significantly greater. Things like mandatory study hours, mandatory academic advising, “optional” practices and other “optional” activities come into play that differentiate the time spent on the sport.</p>
<p>For some swimmers, the trade off in swimming D3 is that there is the possibility of doing well at conference championships and NCAAs. Attending NCAAs as a D3 freshman could be very exciting, and a great motivational goal. In D1, you have to be wicked fast to get there.</p>
<p>Here is what I would encourage your family to think about:</p>
<ol>
<li> Select a school based on your son’s major and his like of the college–and the final cost of the school. All swimmers are one injury away from never swimming again, so your child should love their college regardless of their sport. Swimming should be less than half of the decision.</li>
<li> Select a school where your son can change majors. Enough said. Over 70% of kids change majors.</li>
<li>Look at the swim schedule. How much does the team travel to other meets, and geography. Are these day trips? Bus? Plane? How much school will he miss? Are there a lot of Tuesday or Wednesday meets that really can wreck academics?</li>
<li> Encourage your son to embrace the official visit process. Be highly observant of all that’s going on during his time there. Tell him to ask hard questions–of the coaches, and the swimmers. They expect it. When my D went on visits, she had an index card with her of all the questions she wanted to ask. One coach saw her holding it, asked to see it, and then systematically went down her list one by one to answer everything. The coaches loved how prepared she was to meet with them.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Here are some of the questions she asked the swimmers (casually throughout the weekend):</p>
<p>1) What’s a typical day like?
2) How many of your friends are non-swimmers?
3) How do you think the coach treats you? What about in tough situations?
4) Do you think the coaches are fair?
5) Do you ever wish you were not a student athlete?<br>
6) Do you have problems scheduling courses around swimming?
7) What do you do in the little down time you do have? </p>
<p>Best of luck in the official visit process. It is a fun, nerve wracking time, and it moves very fast. None of the coaches above will pressure your child for a quick decision, so that is good. I will mention that weird things can sway your child’s decision–a flight delay/cancellation, a coach having a bad day, a crabby host and contrasting–a super nice host, a great mix of people on the team, an event on campus that is a hit with your son, even a really nice cafeteria person–all have impact on the experience. The food can really sway the swimmers–good food and plenty of it has a vote too. Weather does too.</p>
<p>When your son arrives back home, get an intitial quick impression, then drop it. Let him shower, decompress, take a nap, do some homework. Then sit down and talk the weekend through so he can think about all the good and bad he saw. After two visits, he can begin to contrast them as well.</p>
<p>It is funny–but by the end of the process–there will be a winner of the OV in their eyes. Then you have to take all the academic and financial stuff into consideration. It is rarely a “toss up” of two schools. During our daughter’s recruiting year, there were 12 swimmers recruited from her club team simultaneously and all had a “clear winner” in the end. </p>
<p>Best of luck. All three are great schools. I’d put a nod into Davidson for weather and the fact they do your laundry for you. They tend to be very well dressed (and pressed) there because of it. </p>
<p>Keep us posted on the progress.</p>
<p>Swim4school–Thanks so much for such a thorough and thoughtful response. A notecard with questions is also a great idea. I agree the OVs will be very helpful to him. I am a little worried about something a little arbitrary clouding his judgment, but I really do trust his judgment. One other question.</p>