Swimming Questions

Athletic Recruits
1

<p>We just recently found this site, and this forum is full of very helpful information. Thank you all for being willing to share your experiences.</p>

<p>Our oldest son is currently a sophomore and has been swimming competitively for 7 years. We are just beginning the process of thinking about colleges and the possibility of swimming in college. For those of you with experience in swimming recruiting, what are your thoughts on the timetable for how/when to begin contacting college coaches? I know for Division I schools that there are restrictions on the varying levels of contact between junior and senior years. My understanding is that they can not begin to send you any correspondence until the beginning of your junior year. Does it make sense to contact coaches prior to that or wait until the start of junior year? I've also heard that for boys they will want to see a continued progression of times into the senior year.</p>

<p>We will most likely be looking at a range of schools including some of the ivy league schools as well as some other top universities and possibly a few of the big state universities and are open to both Division I and Division III. Academics are very important to our son and he will be looking for the right mix of academics and swimming. He made his first JR's cut last summer in long course and is close to having cuts in two other events. I've heard that it's best to have JR's times or faster for the recruiting process. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for any thoughts or information that you all may have!</p>

2

<p>I don’t think swimming is any different than my daughters sport so you can’t contact coaches (they won’t respond) until your son is a junior. That said my d knew some of the top coaches (top colleges) her sophmore year through regional and national events…I know from friends swimming is similar. So get your kid out there and if he’s good the coaches will get to know him.</p>

3

<p>My sons are swimmers too. Have you visited any schools? When my kids were that age, we did the spring break tour of as many different types of schools as we could see. Big State, Ivy, DIII so they could get a feel for what they wanted. Both ended up preferring the opposite of what they thought they would. </p>

<p>Are you looking for a leg up in admissions or scholarship money? Be aware that although the NCAA allows for 9.9 DI men’s scholarships, many schools are not fully funded and may only have 3-5 (or less) to spread across the whole roster. </p>

<p>At every school we visited on our “unofficial tours”, coaches wanted to know GPA and test scores. Interest certainly went up when coaches knew they would not have any issues with admissions. Great grades and high test scores are as important as fast times.</p>

4

<p>^^^^all very good advice-and about what we did-a few visits here and there to get a “feel” and hone in, and then contacting coaches at the selected schools winter junior year, and once the test scores came in, the dance began…</p>

<p>It’s not like football where they have to see you play- a time is a time is a time.Make sure your child is choosing the school for general fit and academic interests-coaches leave, students get injured or lose interest, and you don’t want to be at the wrong school then.</p>

<p>A point on D1 vs D3-the Ivies don’t give athletic scholarships, so you might want to consider how much time your child wants to spend on sports at a highly selective, academically challenging college. Unless you are headed to the olympics, D3 is a nice way to enjoy your sport without it taking up your entire life.</p>

<p>My S is at Midd- 4-5 hours of practice a day in season-includes dry-land and weights-and there are “optional” practices on the mandatory 1 day off per week as well as early every am. Season is 4 months long, and most weekends are totally consumed with meets-travel to and from plus the actual events. Your child has to be very organized and dedicated to do hours of class work on a bus, or in a hotel room with 3 other guys.THIS IS D3…</p>

<p>A family friend is swimming at Harvard. He has mandatory am and pm practices, mandatory training out of season, and more hours put into swimming. He isn’t supposed to go abroad, and breaks are spent training with the team. He can’t handle a science major or spend time home on his winter break. His mom confessed he was already thinking of quitting because he didn’t have time to participate in the rich Harvard environment.
Another friend D1 baseball transferred after 1 semester and is now in D3 because he didn’t like how much power the coach had over his time, even out of season.</p>

<p>I am not putting D1 down. But the time commitment should be realistically reviewed by the student, and compared to their academic goals. To me , a nice D3 school in the NESCAC does the job of blending sport and academics to a level that suited my son’s level of interest and commitment best.</p>

5

<p>My 13yo is a club swimmer with decent times (Silver, with hopes of JO/Gold as a 14 yo). The one thing to realize about club swimmers is they are used to 90+ minutes of year-round daily practice that can be 15-40 minutes from home. I point this out, as college practice will seem like not a huge departure from their normal routine. The USA Swim magazine ‘Splash’ arrived yesterday and it’s all about the NCAA championships, including a few articles on swimming in college.</p>

6

<p>Thank you all for the great advice. </p>

<p>I agree that looking at some of the schools on an informal visit would be very helpful. The challenge is finding the time to do it. We’re in Texas and most of the schools he’s considering are either in the southeast or northeast. We used to get time off from swimming over spring break and then about two weeks in early August. However, last summer my son swam at Junior Nationals which is mid August and school started back up shortly after that. We’ll have the same drill again this coming summer, so looks like next year’s spring break we’ll have to figure out how to see as many schools as possible. We travel a fair amount for swimming and many of the swim meets are held on college campuses (this summer’s Nationals/Junior Nationals will be at Stanford), so we try to look around when we can, just to get a feel for different campuses.</p>

<p>The DI/DIII info is very helpful. We have a family on our club team who have a son swimming at a DI school and another son at a DIII school and they have had similar thoughts about the two different divisions. Also, know several high level swimmers who quit swimming after their freshmen years at big time swimming schools for exactly the reasons OldbatsieDoc mentioned.</p>

<p>We have stressed (and our son agrees) that academics have got to be the primary driver of the college decision. With the exception of Michael Phelps, most swimmers are not going to make a living off of swimming! We’re not looking for a scholarship at all, maybe just some assistance getting in and the experience of swimming at the college level.</p>

<p>What have you all found to be successful in contacting coaches (i.e. filling out the online questionnaires, doing the questionnaires plus a follow up email, sending a stand alone email/resume, etc.)? It sounds like we should start making contacts beginning next school year (his junior year). When do most kids take the SAT/ACT for the first time?(our son is our oldest so we’re still trying to figure out the timing of all the academics as well).</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

7

<p>Hi, I’m also a swimmer (junior in high school) that’s going through this process. In terms of contacting coaches, your son should start contacting them his junior year, at least by the middle of his junior year club season. While it’s true some coaches aren’t allowed to respond with a lot of information, he should know that most of them do read their emails and keep tabs on swimmers contacting them. Therefore, it’s very important for your son to regularly update all of the coaches at the schools he is interested in on any improvements on his times throughout the season. Coaches really want swimmers not only who are fast, but show continual improvement throughout their junior year seasons. I’ve heard from my teammates who went on to swim in college that coaches look at prospective swimmer recruits all the way until their summer season in junior year before making a final decision, so your son still has quite a bit of time.</p>

<p>In terms of swimming ability, having even one junior national time is very impressive, especially for a sophomore. That alone even for some juniors is enough to get them recruited to an Ivy-League, although coaches usually want to see versatility, and look for swimmers who are very good at 3 or more events. If your son can get those 2 additional JR cuts by junior season, he will be in good shape for the recruiting process for Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>If he is looking at DIII schools, he will have absolutely no problem making a huge impact on the team. However, the thing with DIII schools such as Williams and Amherst is that I’m not sure they partake as heavily in the recruiting process. Therefore, I’m not sure how big of an impact swimming will necessarily have on your son’s application process to a top-notch DIII school compared to his application to an Ivy.</p>

<p>In terms of academics, and this applies (as you probably could guess) especially for the Ivy League process, schools want swimmers who are pretty academically capable. There is something called an “Academic Index” for athletic recruits. You could probably do a quick Google search and find an Academic Index Calculator. Coaches look at a swimmer’s times but also their academic index, which takes into account SAT scores, SAT II’s, GPA, Class Rank, etc. I know cases where teammates who have had Sectional/YNationals cut times but not Jr. Nat cut times had outstanding grades, and that was enough to help the coach give a push to their application. </p>

<p>But again, your son as already stands is in good shape for the recruiting process. If he continues to improve, chances are coaches will start looking into him as well. Therefore, he doesn’t necessarily even need a super high academic index, as long as he meets the minimum SAT scores etc required by the Ivies (varies for each school). Ultimately, if your son is going to seriously pursue the recruiting process throughout his junior year, he should take the SATs by December or January, and try to get as many SAT IIs completed as he can so he can update and assure his college coach contacts that academically he will be capable at an Ivy League as well.</p>

8

<p>IntellectualLi-</p>

<p>Thanks so much for your thoughts - it’s very helpful perspective! My son does well academically - he has a 4.0 unweighted GPA at a very competitive top 100 public high school and is in the top 10% for class rank. He took a practice PSAT and ACT this past fall - his math and science scores were all very high but his critical reading scores could use some work and we will be doing some tutoring on that side over the summer. As far as the subject tests, when is the best time to take them? For example, I’m thinking he will probably want to take both chemistry and math. This year he is taking Pre AP Chemistry, and then will take AP Chem II next year and Organice Chemistry his senior year, similarly in math he is taking Pre AP PreCalculus this year, and is scheduled to take AP Calculus BC next year, and Multivariable Calculus his senior year. Would he be in a position to take those subject tests after the completion of this current year or would he be better off waiting until after his junior year and another year of study in the particular subject matter?</p>

<p>Thanks again and best of luck to you in the recruiting process!!</p>

9

<p>Hi Swimmom24</p>

<p>My daughter is a swimmer as well and we just did the whole swim recruiting thing. I recommend the online questionnaires, start them before July AFTER junior year so that when July 1 comes around they will have their eyes on your son. I think in swimming, times during sophomore year may catch their eyes but they will want to see continued improvement. I’ve seen all three scenarios: keep improving, peaked, or even declined. Many boys don’t come into their own until junior or senior year so the coaches seem to not bother expending too much energy looking at sophomores.</p>

<p>As for the D1/D3 thing, that is a huge consideration. Oldbatesie, my daughter actually had a lot of contact with the Midd coach but they wouldn’t have been able to give any aid at all and unfortunately, that was a deciding factor for us. D1 schools ranged from no athletic aid to a small amount. But my daughter doesn’t have JR cuts although she does go to Y Nats and is close in a couple of events. The key is to have times that will score at the division champs, and you can usually find those at collegeswimming.com, which is also a great resource.</p>

<p>Another D1 league to consider if academics are important is the Patriot League: Bucknell, Colgate, Lehigh, etc. They are great schools with decent teams but they may be less intense than a major D1. It is true that a lot of swimmers burn out. </p>

<p>But some need that kind of discipline schedule too, and thrive on it throughout college. A lot of swimmers from my daughter’s club team have stuck it out. Many have quit, but they were often the ones who in high school would have preferred a Friday night out to a night working hard in the pool.</p>

<p>In the end, you will find the fit. We had a hard time too with finding time for college visits. Sometimes you just have to set the time aside and GO. and remember - your son will get five official visits and they will probably be key determinants. The best swimmer on our team just committed this week - and it was to a school that wasn’t even on his radar initially. It was just a school that worked for him - for his major, his swim style, and his geographic preference.</p>

<p>One last thing - my daughter signed early, in November. She will be swimming D1 but one of the ‘second tier’ or whatever they call them D1s so the pressure will be there, but not as intense. But most of the boys have waited and several have not committed yet. But if your son wants ivy, he may have to commit early, if he wants the coach’s support to get in.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

10

<p>I disagree about the interest/pull that a great swimmer with the grades can have on the chance of admission at any of the NESCACs. Having just come from NESCAC swim meet and seeing Midd get “spanked” by the swimming powerhouses of Amherst and Williams, there is zero chance that they are not recruiting heavily. Not for many spots, but they take the best if they can get them.
With due respect, intellectualli is dead wrong on the impact of ability to compete on the team on admissions: ED acceptance rate for recruited athletes at these schools is 80-90%, compare that to non-athletes…</p>

<p>About test scores: If we had to do it again:
Midd doesn’t require SAT2s, which is partly why my son is there. He wouldn’t study for the SAT2s, he is a DREADFUL test taker with PSATs so low I thought he would be impossible to get into a good college-(he has a learning disability but refuses to take meds or ask for accommodation-which I respect him for, but it is a jungle out there…)He managed a 31 on the ACT, but his SAT2s were 640, 650, and 690 in Bio, US History, and Math2.Not indicative of his abilities, or consistent with his grades or IB scores. So Williams wrote him off, because he would have needed full support(a slot). Amherst wanted a 32 on the ACT for the same reason, and he had already taken that twice…29 the first time.</p>

<p>Point being: he should have taken the SAT2s in his junior year, so he could take them again in his senior year-didn’t have time for the ED1 deadline. </p>

<p>In the end, it didn’t matter. He loves Midd, he is doing well, and he did great at NESCACS-8th and 10th in his events.(Luckily for us, with 2 kids at Midd, we get need-based aid).</p>

11

<p>Have him take the SAT2s when he takes the related AP exam, so at the end of junior year, or maybe even take the Math 2 after his sophomore year. Both my kids took it before they took AP calc and did very well. Also, make sure to take Math2 (not Math1). The curve is much more lenient, and if he has reasonable math instruction, he should do very well on it.
Some colleges may want to see ‘different SATs’, not just math and science, so could he take US history, a language, or English?
And yes, you want to be done with all the testing at the end of junior year because the ivies and many D1 schools try to have everything ready to go over the summer after junior year. Official visits start in September, and for many recruits, everything is said and done by mid October; for some schools that give out national letters of intent, the internal deadlines are even earlier.</p>

12

<p>swimmom, i would give this some thought.</p>

<p>“We have stressed (and our son agrees) that academics have got to be the primary driver of the college decision.”</p>

<p>i recommend passion should be the primary driver in ones life, and life is happening now not after college. For my daughter it was her sport first which meant, of the teams/schools that came after her, she chose the coach and teammates first and the academics of the school 2nd. </p>

<p>i think a person will get more rewarding development from being on the right team with ok academics vs being on the wrong team with great academics.</p>

<p>just my 2 cents, and good luck to your child!!</p>

13

<p>Don’t overlook strong DIII programs with strong academics outside of the NE - Denison, Kenyon, Kalamazoo, St. Olaf, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Dickinson, Wash U, DePauw, Washington & Lee, Whitworth, etc.</p>

14

<p>I second what Oldbatsie said in terms of Amherst/Williams and recruiting. My daughter was recruited at both schools this year in another sport and a coach who wants you can help get you in. As far as SAT IIs and Williams, we were told scores need to be in the 700s–preferably mid-700s.</p>

15

<p>^^^^sounds like the same story.
And Boiler, good points- I love St. Olaf, it is consistently under-rated, but very small of course. CMU is another school my S looked at-but the coach said she didn’t have much pull. Pittsburgh is great, and there’s so much to offer there.</p>

16

<p>“What have you all found to be successful in contacting coaches (i.e. filling out the online questionnaires, doing the questionnaires plus a follow up email, sending a stand alone email/resume, etc.)?”</p>

<p>You didn’t mention the club coach. DS swam with a respected and longtime coach who regularly contacted college coaches on behalf of his swimmers, especially the ones whose times weren’t the fastest but who had the potential for further improvement at the college level. Don’t hesitate to ask your son’s coach, or the club in general, for assistance on swimming in college.</p>

17

<p>I completely agree that passion is the driver–college is an amalgam of many parts–and while most important–at least while one is there–is academics, the statistics are very clear that when asked later in life what was the most important aspect of college in preparation for later life, academics almost always comes near the bottom. Harry Lewis, former Dean of Harvard College has done a study in which he shows that aside from proto-academicians, that college grades have no predictive value with any measurement of success one would propose. (Now, they are Harvard students…). </p>

<p>For me, the most important thing I did at college was to write and edit my daily student newspaper. It was there–not in any class–that I learned to write (and I do it professionally–although not in journalism) and plan, to become both a team player and a leader. Sports for many kids do the same.</p>

<p>Studies consistently demonstrate that varisity athletes score highest in the happiness category among college students and development officers all know that ex athletes are far and away the largest contributors --both per capital and absolutely–to the alma maters.</p>

<p>So–yes, look for academic fit, of course–but more importantly is to look for an over all fit. As the Headmaster of Eton remarked–Eton could have just the cleverest boys–but it doesn’t want that-- it wants some boys who are extremely clever, some who are great at games, some who excel in the art studio, stage or concert hall…all are equally valuable.</p>

<p>Just so.</p>

18

<p>Here is a site that will outline everything you should know when you are planning to swim in college. There are many factors besides academics and program times. Good luck
[College</a> Recruiting Guide for Swimmers](<a href=“http://collegerecruitingforswimmers.blogspot.com/]College”>http://collegerecruitingforswimmers.blogspot.com/)</p>

19

<p>Reviving an old thread - I’m a HS junior that is just beginning to get in contact with coaches regarding women’s swimming (Low Tier D1, High D3, Ivy, NESCAC). I’ve toured a few schools on my list and fell in love with an Ivy. My grades, rank, scores, extracurriculars, etc are good enough to make me a decently competitive applicant to this Ivy even without swimming - however, I do want to swim in college. My times, as of now, would definitely make it into C-Finals at Ivies. Though the Ivy I am most interested in ranked in the lower half of the Ivy League, I’m not sure if my times are fast enough for a coach to use a recruit slot on me. I’d definitely walk onto their team (which they do allow, from what i understand). Can a coach tell the admissions officers that they want me as an athlete without using a recruit “slot” on me and influence my admissions decision to that college (granted that I would have somewhat of a chance without swimming)? Basically, can a coach help you get accepted to the college even if you aren’t on their final list of recruits? </p>

<p>Sorry if I rambled a bit - I didn’t feel comfortable asking this question directly to the coach - I don’t want to come off as someone who uses their sport simply to get accepted to college. </p>

<p>Sidenote - I have only been swimming competitively since 8th grade (when I first joined the varsity HS team) and I’ve only swam for a USA Swimming based club for a little over 2 years, so I do have lots of room to improve. Would this be worth mentioning to the college coaches, or would that turn them off?</p>

20

<p>From my limited knowledge, there is no middle ground - you are either a recruit or on your own in the application process. This doesn’t mean that the coach won’t intentionally be vague and ambigious during the application process - perhaps even leading the applicant to a conclusion that there is some weight applied to the app (after all, if you get in the coach can claim the credit, and if you don’t you won’t be around anyway).</p>

<p>As you can see from the various accepted thread stats, unless you are a recruited athlete who has received a likely letter, admission is a matter of chance amongst applicants who are all very worthy. (Although admissions will somehow lead you to think that there is some logic (undisclosed to the masses) to their madness.)</p>

<p>As for your times, continue to work hard - harder then you’ve worked on anything in your life - and see what happens!</p>