we all agree that it very much depends on coaches. some coaches are very familiar with international swimmers, in fact two of the coaches have recruited swimmers that trained with D24. Other coaches openly shared that they don’t currently have a single international swimmer on their squad, but certainly hope to recruit one soon.
Regarding SCY, we’re using the “official” swimswam conversion tool, and most times are FINA certified. Coaches have also received videos that include national meets in two countries, that are obviously FINA certified. Where D24 is hampered, as you pointed out, is the lack of racing at US meets, and being registered under a US club and USA Swimming. That is happening this summer, but it is too late for that to impact her recruiting schedule. A friend of hers who swam in the US last summer is getting substantially more direct recruit inquiries as a result.
To be honest, I find the swimcloud conversion timed to be very generous (too generous). They are quite a bit faster than the ones the team uses when converted entries are allowed, rare at higher level meets, probably bc they aren’t accurate.
Many athletes struggle to achieve converted times.
FWIW I think those coaches are just seeing where she goes. They probably have several swimmers in a similar position. It is not that an offer is not possible, but short having a superstar ready to commit, these coaches are bidding their time. They are slowly seeing the whole picture come together, and the swimmers they are in touch with may or may not fit in that picture.
If your daughter has a chance to talk directly with the coach, she should be asking:
What is the recruiting process and timeline like?
Are you able to support recruits with admissions? How does that work?
When do you make decisions about who to support? Have you already decided? Does my profile fit with the types of recruits you’d support?
Id love to visit to learn more about the school and program, how would that work?
There are all sorts of natural places in that conversation to get detailed answers to specific questions.
But if you’re looking for a magic number to hit I think you’ll be disappointed.
I’m also not a fan of the Where am I on your list question. That’s not how it works at many programs and especially if early in the process it’s way premature. I can see asking that as it’s getting later in the process and you’re narrowing options. That’s why getting a sense of each coach’s timeline is important.
So I think what you’re calling vague is either the coach being accurate, or simply not saying no without implying yes.
The more specific form letters you’re describing that list times without any personal inquiry are usually what coaches use when they aren’t interested right now but, again, don’t want to say no. It’s more of a “we’ll keep your resume on file” response IMO. If a coach is interested they’ll usually do more than send a form letter.
The more specific letters come early in the process, and help divide into those who should pursue the conversation, and those that aren’t cut for that team , barring any miraculous improvement. D24 assessed that Chicago, Cornell, Dartmouth, Emory,
John Hopkins, UBC were too fast. She’s well past this round of communication.
The main questions by Q2 of Junior Year are simple and fair:
“where do I track on your recruit list”
“how many swimmers do you intend to recruit for fall 2024?”
answering these simple question will better communicate to the athlete the likelyhood/potential of being recruited by that coach. we all understand that further changes can happen: a late recruit joining, another recruit opting to go elsewhere, or someone not passing a pre-read, a coach change, etc. Barring all that, it is always good to have a “current” assessment of where one stands in the coaches eyes.
OP, having followed this thread since the beginning I want to pop in & say ‘good on you’. I respect your focus, your perseverance, your openness to new perspectives / information, your balance between where as a parent you should take the lead v. back off, and even your sometimes spicy responses!
That’s all. It’s been a long road to get this far, and the last stretch of a long journey can feel disproportionately difficult. So, this post is like the people handing out little cups of water to people running in marathons- a little validation, a little encouragement! In less than a year you will both know where she is going to college. Courage! (<-read that with a french accent)
There is no perfect converter. It is an average and doesn’t mean that an individual will make that time. There is a reason you can’t use converted times to qualify for higher level meets.
My swimmer has a much easier time hitting SCY to LCM conversions than the other way around. The opposite is true for several teammates.
Your D sometimes swims SCM, correct? How do her times compare? If she is better at SCM she is more likely to hit those LCM to SCY conversions. Still, the swimcloud ones are fast. You can also check SwimSwam and Swimming World for slightly different (but also imperfect) algorithms.
When a coach responds by stating “continue to improve your times,” to me it is a rather clear message they would like faster times. I would have your daughter reply when she does make improvements and give new concrete data for coaches to work with. Coaches may not want / be able to give more precise information about where your kid ranks currently because there are too many factors to account for. the estimates you provide of where your kid may rank may not be accurate- the pool of talented, high achieving athletes is large .
D24 can get a good assessment of SCY times without conversion because she can access a yard pool at her training facility, and doesn’t have trouble swimming in SCY or SCM. the debate is moot to the extent that all her races are SCM/LCM, which is the international and Olympic standard. So coaches who don’t understand that standard are deciding to be off grid. That’s probably a small minority of ambitious college coaches. If there is a minority of such coaches that aren’t prepared to consider foreign swimmers because electronic converters are inexact, D24 can’t do anything about that, so the topic of discussion becomes irrelevant.
remember it isn’t just the 2023 class, many coaches already have their 2024 lists as well, so it is possible they are further along with stronger or better fit 2024s then your daughter. ignore where you think your daughter is ranked on a team - look at the training for your daughter and check in with updated times or relevant academic updates. Let the coach know if this is a top 3 school for your daughter and what your plans are for visiting. the coaches are in the driver seat, you are just along for the ride
Every coach and swimmer in the world wants faster times. The confusing part is this thread is the following
many of you have advised that D24 is late in a process many athletes start in sophomore year
many 2024 athletes have already publicly declared their school swim team in Q1 2023, and many more are expected in Q2 2023
This proves it is every coach’s job duty to select swimmers, and logic means they would have a list at every stage from Q1 of Junior Year onward.
All D24 is asking these coaches is where do I stand on your list. Indeed, when the answer isn’t forthcoming, she simply assumes it isn’t top 3 and continues to labor at it with swim training/swim meets/update emails and zoom calls. Her experience so far is that coaches haven’t been clear on this subject, and the interpretation is therefore she’s not Top3 for any of the coaches she’s talking to. It is probably the truth for most, but we believe that is statistically unlikely that is the case for all. So in the instances where we’re in doubt, she will continue to push the coach for clarification. This particular advice comes from the parents of D1 & D3 swimmers D24 trained with and who recently participated in their NCAA Championships. This advice is fully informed.
the reason some coaches are vague - especially at d3, is that at this point all 2024s are verbal so can change and no coach wants to put all their eggs in one basket and then be left with empty spots. without and NLI or ED commitment, coaches will have verbals but want to have some quality back ups incase verbals fall through. It will become clear throughout the summer and into fall as verbals become formal commitments
That’s logical and certainly confirms she’s in the backup wagon since she doesn’t know her rank and isn’t asked to give a verbal. Her focus is simply to train & compete hard to jump onto the recruit seat. We shall live to see the impact of her improvement in the upcoming weeks.
I know, I know, different sport, but in men’s d3 soccer there would be very few verbal commitments at this time. Like, almost none. Maybe because the NESCAC is the strongest league and so their timetable drives everything.
But, that’s one reason coaches might be vague at this stage – they just don’t know how things will shake out for them, so they are keeping a bunch of kids – 20? 40? – in the pool of possible recruits.
I asked upthread what academically selective schools had slow(er) swim teams and I urged the OP to focus on those schools. I would repeat that advice, with emphasis!
I agree. For NESCAC swimming, it is still early in the recruiting process. Maybe the fastest teams will offer spots in August but I think most NESCAC teams will be after the recruiting visits in September.
@cinnamon1212 thanks for your advice, D24 has written to 20/50 D3 schools, ranking from #3 Emory / #4 Tufts to #49 Wesleyan. Given she’s a 3.95 GPA student, there simply aren’t any academically selective schools left in D3 to add to her list, having eliminated Women’s Colleges (Wellesley, Bryn Mar, Smith, Mount Holyoke) & MIT/Caltech/RPI/NYU for fit. D24 is passionate about swimming, but conscious that university choice is first and foremost about quality education in her field of interest, a condition that is not negotiable
@swimmom1922 most international swimmers won’t be making recruiting visits in September 2023. Their timeline to being recruited remains preread in July, confirmed strong coach support & top3 rank on coach’s list in Jul-Sep followed by supported ED application in October. This timeline is consistent with most college swimmers D24 has talked to.
Unfortunately for her, unless she is their super star recruit and in a position to say “coach, I must know and decide now” it is the coach who will decide the timeline.
Maybe she will be able to say it to a bottom of her list school just to have a bird in hand. It’s fine but I don’t really get it, because despite all of the “cast a wide net advice” that list is really big right now. Does she really rather have a sure thing at ANY of those many schools?
Not being able to visit in September because it’s not realistically practical will not be a deal breaker anywhere. I would, however, try to visit as many as you can while you are in the US. Some may disagree but I would venture that visiting these schools and making the effort to meet the coach in person will take her further than a few weeks with a US team where she would be swimming LCM anyway.
Some kids will go for that rushed bird in hand decision and then break that agreement. There is nothing to keep you from doing it but it is bad form. I don’t want the coaches to do it and I don’t think the athletes should either.
Though D24’s written to 20 D3 schools, more than 5 have already told her she’s not fast enough, so her current list contain a dozen schools for which she’s seeking recruit status. Despite @TonyGrace calling her “list really big right now”, we believe a dozen is reasonable and realistic given that none of those coaches have openly rated her Top3 on their list.
Through continued effort, training, and commitment, she will have maximized her chances of being recruited, and that’s the most she can do. as parents, we’re both supportive and admirative of this perseverance and dedication for her passion.
I don’t think the list is too big right now and I think she should keep sending updates to all those coaches. It’s certainly what we would be doing. FWIW it’s ok to send a disappointing update too. Not every meet is a win and coaches want to see how a swimmer deals with that.
What I meant to express is that I think it’s unlikely that any of 12 schools will do. I don’t mean a student can’t be happy at any of 12 schools but are they truly interchangeable? Would she really take an offer from #12 just because #1 is working on an early fall timeline? This is, of course, assuming all on the list are reasonably realistic, and I think you’ve done a great job of making sure they are.
Most importantly, It’s likely that those 12 schools are pretty different from each other. IMO a successful US college experience is, above all, about finding the right fit. I’ll say it again - prioritize visiting schools when you are in the US. With a little planning you can squeeze a lot in a few days. We drove 1200 miles and visited 9 schools in 4 days, many of which are on your list. It was a lot, but we walked away with a great sense of which compromises we were willing to make when making a college list.
Also, just to make it clear, when I say 1-12, I do not mean per D3 rankings. I mean 1-12 per your daughters personal preference.