@GKmom23 respectfully, your question is irrelevant in D24’s case. The following point has been made several times in this thread.
D24 wants to attend an academically selective school and swim in college. She has cast a wide net covering 20+ schools in the top 50 D3 swim schools, which is not where “world or Olympic caliber” swimmers compete. That is where she would like to be recruited as a swimmer.
In D24’s case, academic selectivity takes precedent over swimming. If she is unable to be recruited as a swimmer at an academically selective school, she will apply to a list of academically selective schools with and without swimming walk-on option. She already has the necessary grades for admission to an academically selective Canadian University.
there is always room of an additional recruit if they are significantly better then what is in the current class but the coach has told you his class is full and your child will not be recruited athlete at that school. it is really hard to hear - the recruiting process is brutal, my kid had many difficult phone calls and emails and it is tough for the kid and the parent to hear you are not wanted. Don’t try to read between the lines, the coach was clear your daughter isn’t what he/she is looking for. if you don’t love the school move on and find one to replace it on your list and reach out.
what is your daughter’s take on her current list? she isn’t getting the attention she needs with the small group of schools she is targeting, is she ready to give up swimming in a year’s time? there isn’t much of a different in the education she would receive at a T100 school vs T50 school, but it seems you are sold on the name value of a school. I will step away from this thread now as it seems you are no longer looking for advice and have a clear path. I wish you and your daughter the best.
we’re not disagreeing with your argument to move on if the team is done recruiting for 2024, we’re only saying that a zoom call with the coach will positively confirm whether it was a miscommunication, or the coach really meant full for 2024 not full for 2023. It’s a simple question and will only take a few minutes to answer.
FWIW - and I have very much tried to stay out of this thread, though I am wildly impressed by the patience and kindness being shown by so many here - busy people generally do not want a Zoom call to confirm a fact in an email. If you’re genuinely interested in and will be prepared for talking about walk-on possibilities, then by all means have the call: if you have a simple question - especially to confirm what is almost certainly not a typo - perhaps a quick response in email gets you there. “Hi Coach Jones - I just wanted to confirm you meant 2024 and not 2023. Thank you!”
In my opinion, the OP’s role is not to grasp at straws, but to maximize possibilities for his daughter.
Again, in my opinion, he is grasping at straws. The programs he is targeting are being polite at best.
If the goal is to swim in college, there should be a school, or a list of schools who would recruit his daughter given her current times. It is my understanding, none of the schools on her list qualify for this.
There must be an academically elite school out there that has a slow swim team?
Expectations need to be broadened at best, and more likely lowered
Given how late it is in the process, the OP needs a backstop school that if all goes wrong, it is a choice he and his daughter will be happy with. Earlier in the thread, he suggested his daughter was “in” at a academically/athletically competitive school in Canada. I hope this is true, especially since they have yet to talk to the coach.
Earlier in the thread, the OP mentioned that his daughter is a minority and an ORM. Not sure what he meant by that, but if his daughter is an URM, it is time to start playing that card. Good grades and a 1500 SAT mean nothing if she is an ORM.
Again, I think most of the OP daughter’s boxes get check if Wellesley is considered…ironic that gender is the issue that prevents a terrific academic/athletic outcome.
I really wouldn’t dismiss walk on opportunties. Particularly at strong academic schools, we found many coaches just did not have that much pull with admission -a few athletes, yes, but a small fraction of the number of swimmers they need, and they know that they will be relying on walk ons to fill out their teams.
I’ll reiterate it again, as you are VERY focused on the numbers. Recruiting was not that simple in my son’s experience. He was an obvious impact swimmer on several teams his sophomore year in high school (ie his current times were top 1-2 in several events and would add to multiple relays) and the coaches really were not extremely enthusiastic. Others where he was further down with current times, were extremely responsive and wanted times/video from his meets to see him develop. My very unscientific belief is that many of the “slower” teams are also the ones that have less pull and ability to recruit.
Forgive me because I definitely do not know womens d3 swimming but here’s a list of the lowest ranked academically selective (to varying degrees) schools:
#91 Grinnell
101 Vassar
108 Colby
115 Colorado College
113 Occidental
117 Skidmore
122 Macalester
164 Hamilton
234 Bard
If that ranking is roughly accurate Hamilton seems like the logical target to me. But all those schools should be on OP’s list.
we’re happy to listen to positive suggestions, and there have been many patient and kind comments for which we’re thankful.
we’ve been very disciplined at looking through the list of top 50 D3 swimming schools that are academically demanding schools.
D24 has identified one school in Canada with strong academics, where she has the grades to gain admission for her intended major, where she likes both the city, and the coach. She’s currently ranked #6 out of a recruiting roster of 6-8 2024 swimming recruits and is working on improving her times along the way.
D24 had identified a US school that is the slowest amongst her list and for which her times qualify her to be recruited, though she’s doesn’t yet know her exact positioning on the coach’s recruit list. She should soon know on the next zoom call.
D24 is in active dialogue with several other schools which are monitoring her progress, and her recruiting journey will depend on both her upcoming times, as well as those coach’s further progress in recruiting other faster swimmers.
Finally, please accept that like every other teenager, D24 has voiced clear preference to exclude elite STEM universities (MIT, Caltech) and Women’s College (Smith, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Mount Holyoke) from her list.
For US schools, she does qualify as Hispanic, which is specificied to the coaches where applicable
But we’ve all been telling you she needs to look at NON top 50 swimming schools!!
It is clear she’s not at that level right now, so right now she needs to focus on the bottom 50 swimming programs. Which can also be top academic schools.
Bowdoin was 4th in the NESCAC finals - behind Tufts, Williams, and Amherst. I don’t know that it would fit the bill as “slow”. There are more in that conference that are slower than faster, and most of those schools are considered to be prestigious. Whetger they are a fit is something else.
I don’t know much about Swat’s swim team. What do you know about that one?
I don’t understand why people keep suggesting lower ranked or other schools that OP and the D don’t want. They have said they would be happy to attend their safety Mcgill (which is highly prestigious internationally) or Toronto (ditto) and not swim or walk on (or maybe be recruited, not sure where that stands?). If they have those schools in the bag so to speak and they are happy with those, why are we still suggesting they add lower ranked schools? It does not seem like swimming recruiting is necessarily driving the bus here, and that’s ok. I do appreciate that international families think about prestige differently than we might be.
I think all the NESAC teams are in the top 50 (at least for men’s when my son was looking). OP check out the UAA teams - all strong academically and while top teams will be too fast, the slower ones may work ie University of Rochester, Case Western, Brandeis etc.
ETA current stats for women’s NESAC put lowest ranked teams Wesleyan at 49th overall D3 and Wheaton out of top 50
Because the OP has also said her/his daughter definitely wants to swim in college. My son had some schools he ideally wouldn’t seriously consider if things went his way, but during junior year it was not at all clear how things would play out and we didn’t know what the choices would be.
My own view is that its good to have a variety of academic/athletic levels in the mix so there are some choices in the end. Kids change a lot and maybe the elite LAC in Iowa with swimming will be more appealing than the Canadian university with no swimming. I just would keep as many doors open as possible at this point.
It probably would be helpful for the OP to clarify this, unless I’m the only one who’s a little unclear, which is entirely possible!
Speaking for myself, the top 50 D3 swimming schools seems a bit arbitrary. I understand completely not letting swimming get ahead of the academics as it was extremely important for us as well. But there were several much higher ranked ACADEMIC schools that are not in the top 50 D3 swimming schools, but do have teams that might make sense for a student coming late to the party and without super fast times.
because it is a live and ongoing process, please accept that we will not engage in open discussion of specifics naming the school with which the dialogue is ongoing. We will however be open about schools that have already been classified as “too fast to recruit D24”, which includes Chicago, John Hopkins, Williams, Dartmouth, and Tufts. D24 is in active dialogue with coaches at the other schools in her list, which realistically range from a match to a far reach.
That current batch includes
Amherst
Bowdoin
Claremont
Carnegie Mellon
Colby
Franklin & Marshall
Pomona
Swarthmore
Washington St Louis
Wesleyan
Toronto
McGill
indeed Brandeis, Grinnell, Hamilton, Case Western, Vassar, Occidental, Bard, etc could be added, but there are also other considerations such as major, fit, and most importantly that she’s very happy with her Canadian option where she had the grades for admission, great school, great program, great community, and prestigious school where D24 qualifies for the swim team,
More clarity would be good if OP is willing to share because I thought they said swimming wasn’t necessary (and they do have many schools on the current list where swimming would not be possible), and we also have no idea what the D thinks. (not being critical of OP, but we know students and parents can sometimes not be in agreement as to what they want).
ETA: Posted the same time that OP gave a good update.
Glad to hear that her Canadian choice seems possible for both admissions and swimming.
It may seem like some of the posts are negative but I think everyone here is truly just trying to help your daughter. We’ve had kids go through the recruiting process so we’ve seen first hand how challenging this process can be and probably have seen bad outcomes amongst those we know. We are all trying to advise you so your kid does not get shut out.
Whatever ideas of “top US schools” you may have are probably somewhat warped and it helps to keep an open mind about schools which may not sound as familiar. My ideas about which schools were considered “good” were out of date and with lots of research and listening, I have learned a lot has changed in higher education. Admissions to selective US colleges is BONKERS. Top grades and scores are just not enough to earn admissions at these schools and I think almost all recruited athletes (even with top scores/grades) would struggle to be admitted if they were just considered among the regular applicant pool.