Environmental Science IIRC
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Not sure they have enough prestige, but well regarded in my area, consider taking a peek at Gettysburg (D3) and Lafayette (D1 but not that fast) My daughter has friends on both swim teams.
There’s only one D3 UC: Santa Cruz. Are their times really too fast? They seem to be on par with perhaps the mid-range of NESCAC. And if that’s too fast, maybe the assessment of the athlete’s recruitability for the targeted type of schools wasn’t realistic in the first place?
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Santa Cruz is too fast for her strokes, and it would academically be a safety school for her non swim list, within the UC list
I was responding to the comment that a swimmer, soccer player, lax player couldn’t be recruited if he/she hadn’t played club or at a tippy top level as a high school athlete. I feel there is a team for every athlete who really wants to play in college, but the student athlete may have to compromise on the school, the academic program, the sports team. We looked at a lot of schools for my daughter and nothing clicked until we went to Florida Tech. She saw the engineering programs and just loved them. They were starting a new team and the coach was willing to take anyone (and daughter had the grades to make it work). Coach didn’t realize that my daughter was actually very good, but she was small and had changed teams while in high school so didn’t have the publicity she needed to be recruited by stronger programs. But daughter loved the academics and just want to play. Good fit. Not MIT, but good academics, good opportunities, good price for me. She had friends she’d played lacrosse with who went to D1 programs at BC, Jacksonville, ASU, DU and only the DU player ever saw playing time. The one who went to BC had been an all-American in high school, state champion, won a lot of awards, but she played maybe 5 minutes in two years. She got to go to BC, she got to practice with some of the best players in the country, but she never got to play. Had she chosen a different program, she probably would have played more or even started.
Your daughter can swim if she wants to, and there are plenty of good, even top, schools for her to do that at but you’ve stated she’d rather apply to a top school (UC Berkeley, Stanford) where she has no chance of swimming than apply to a school with a team for which she is a match. That’s a choice, but you said she wanted to use swimming as a hook. That won’t happen at those schools (she may not need the hook).
You said she wanted to major in Bio. I’m sure Queens has a bio major, as does every school in the US.
It’s fine, she wants a top school, and she’s willing to give up swimming. As I said my daughter could have gone to UF but not done lacrosse. She didn’t want to give up lax, and she got a great deal to major in civil engineering, play lax (started every game for 4 years, played almost every minute, went to the NCAA tournament for 2 years (that starter team got good, fast, and my daughter played a big part in that as she really WAS good). Not MIT, not GaTEch, but still got an engineering degree and had a job at graduation. We don’t think she sacrificed anything but she did have to make choices between more well known schools like UF and playing lax.
There are swimmers from her school who go to the NCAAs every year. Here’s one who was a (pun intended) big fish in a small pond (pool):
Not saying Florida Tech is right for your daughter (although it has a very good bio program) but that there are plenty of schools where your daughter can find an athletic and academic fit. We also needed a financial fit, but you said you don’t need that which opens the field even more.
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I think her best relative event is the 100M Free? Based on previous comments about her LCM and SCM PBs, converted to SCY via the SwimSwam Real-Time Converter those are something like 53.57-53.76.
That’s outside of 16th place (53.18) UCSC’s conference championship (Pacific Collegiate Swimming and Diving Conference) in February. Slowest scoring time (24th place for 1 point) was 53.92.
The two UCSC 100M finals entrants swam 52.52 and 52.54 (10th and 11th place overall). Their 3rd fastest swimmer was at 55.45 in prelims. This might be a clue they they are only interested in recruiting someone who could crack their top 2 in the given event and/or score in the top 16 or so at the conference championship.
Moving to the NESCAC championships, 16th place was 53.41, or just slightly slower than the Pacific. 24th place (Pre-Consolation Final), that scores 1 team point, was still 53.78 though. The two UCSC swimmers’ times would have placed 11th and 13th–almost identical to their placement in their conference.
The strongest schools had multiple swimmers in the top 24: Amherst (5), Tufts (4), Bowdoin (3), Hamilton (2), CoCo (2), Bates (2), Middlebury (2), Williams (2). Unlikely to get traction with those unless everyone is graduating and they don’t have fast 2023s coming in.
Who’s left?: Wesleyan (1), Colby (1), Trinity (0). That’s who you target.
EDIT: interestingly, in a post about a week ago, Wesleyan and Colby are listed as the only two NESCAC schools where an interest in a pre-read has been indicated. Also, Tufts, Williams, Bowdoin, and Middlebury were listed as “too fast”.
It looks like overall swim program strength generally explains other schools on the list that haven’t show interest (or explicitly said that the swimmer was not fast enough), such as Chicago (#6), Carnegie-Mellon (#12), JHU (#13), Swarthmore (#15), and WashU (#17). Top 25 D3 swimming schools are probably unlikely unless there is some unusual circumstance. Need to move further down the list
Caveat for the above: I know nothing about the swimming recruiting world. But a few minutes with a few data points actually reveals quite a bit. It seems you needed to have figured out if a top two time on a team in a given event is a decent rule of thumb to get significant interest. But then rather than trying run a bunch of probabilities and scenarios after that, actually just ASK a bunch of coaches to get a lay of the land.
Again, that should have been sorted out early on by casting a wide net to get a much better idea of the athlete’s market value and competitiveness relative to programs and conferences. A lot of time seems to have been wasted trying to communicate with schools that were likely never going to be interested, and some schools were passed over that might have been interested before, but not at a late stage in the cycle/process.
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your analysis is fair and pointed, she’s still going through the process with coaches who have expressed interest for a combination of pre-read & summer visits, and will visit them, though there is no guarantee of being a recruit (Wesleyan, Colby, McGill, Franklin & Marshall, Swarthmore, …). Waiting to hear from Bates, Hamilton, Trinity, Oberlin.
the visits will include other schools on her non swim list (UCs, Toronto, Stanford, Barnard, …), together with certain swim schools where she doesn’t qualify as a recruit (Dartmouth, Pomona/Claremont, Brown, Amherst)
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I have a stupid question - and maybe it’s been covered already. But when does one cease being “a recruited athlete” once there’s been a pre-read? For me, it sounds as though there’s a point where - I think - when the music stops playing - and the family still has to decide whether to play the ED card at that school. But otherwise, is there ever an explicit change in status once the conversations start in earnest?
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not been through it, but our understanding is once the recruit officially passes the pre-read (which for many starts on 1st July) sometimes in July-August, the coach gives a number of athletes his “unconditionally support/slot”, and others
a “supported tip”.
the unconditional support often comes with a request to ED, and then becomes the equivalent of a 99% guaranteed admission into the school/team.
the supported tip isn’t a 99% guarantee of admission in most places, unless the coach presents it as a guaranteed admission
Different people might answer this differently. My answer is that one doesn’t ever stop being, and being referred to, as a recruited athlete.
It’s not that after a preread one decides to ED. You are missing a couple of steps. It goes like this:
- Pass the preread
- The coach makes an offer, many times with a time limit. Note, step one does not always lead to step two.
- The athlete explicitly accepts the coach’s offer. Note, step two does not always lead to step three. This acceptance of the coach’s offer usually takes place months before an ED application is submitted.
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Ultimately the coach will communicate to those who have passed the pre-read that they are being offered a slot/coach support, or not. The timeline for all of that varies and can be impacted by many factors.
If offered, the athlete has some time to decide whether or not they are going to accept the verbal offer. There is usually a deadline to accept verbal offers…can be a day or two, or a week or two. Generally not a month.
If the student doesn’t get support they can move on to other schools for recruiting and/or still apply to the first school.
IME, which is broader than just my kids, this process can go well into October for the ED round. Some recruiting happens in RD as well.
Also IME, one of the greatest challenges in recruiting is getting the timing to work out. Often the first offer may not be from the student’s top choice school. Then, the student has to contact the top choice coach, say they have an offer, and ask where that coach is in the process. Some coaches will be motivated to move on an offer if the student is among their top choices, others may stick to whatever timeline they are working.
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“Recruited athlete” can mean different things. For example, most of the discussions here refer to being recruited at a higher end academic selective school with a low acceptance rate, and the coach is using their official support, be it a slot, tip, Likely Letter, etc. to recruit the student, pre-read, have them commit and apply, typically ED.
There are also some higher end schools in which the coach is recruiting athletes though they do not have slots or much or any pull with admissions. My understanding is that in those situations, the athlete is applying pretty much on their own like other students, and the coaches hope they get admitted and will be on the team. This also happens at schools in the NESCAC, Ivies, etc. when the coach does not have any more official support to offer, though they student/athlete may be welcome on the team, and could even be an impact player.
There are also many schools that have higher acceptance rates in which the coach is still actively recruiting athletes though depending on the school, student, sport, etc., the recruit may not need any help or support to be admitted. For that situation there may not be the typical pre-read and ED commitment, though the student is still being actively recruited by the coach.
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I don’t think months is necessarily accurate. I think it depends on the sport. Many athletes I know were taking official and unofficial visits well into September and October. This was true for swimmers and xctf athletes as well as a few D3 volleyball kids I know. And some ‘23 track athletes are still being recruited right now. Those are obviously too late for an ED situation so their options are limited.
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Agree, good points. It certainly depends on the sport. It can also very depending on if they are a high end recruit being recruited by higher end D1s vs D3, as well as the school, the team, etc.
What you describe is my experience as well.
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for us it was clear when DD was no longer being recruited - early on it was silence after repeated attempted contact via email or a coach clearly stating they weren’t recruiting for her position/class. Once communication had been established coaches clearly communicated that daughter was no longer on their list, was no longer in consideration - very little guessing game. I think OP confuses being recruited with being offered. Their daughter is being recruited by a number of schools but has not yet been offered a spot with coach support through admissions
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i disagree that a recruited athlete means different things. while the cards the coach is able to offer may be different - financial awards for D1, D2 and NAIA, coach support for D3, roster spot for D1, D2, D3, and NAIA the overall process is very similar and the role of the coach and athlete is very similar.
Coach looks for athletes that can impact their program, athlete looks for program that fits athletic and academic needs. Coach and athlete communicate each other and share strengths they can offer. Coach and athlete evaluate fit of athlete and school. Coach and athlete cull lists. When coach determines athlete brings value to program and can fit program and school parameters an offer of some type is made. If athlete agrees school is a good fit a verbal commitment is made. Written commitment is made via NLI for D1, D2, NAIA or a submitted application D3 (in any round).
Recruiting ends when an athlete or coach feel one or the other is no longer a good fit or when the athlete makes a commitment.
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Yes. Most on this board on fairly educated on this, or become educated, though out around the fields, gyms, etc. terms are often thrown around incorrectly, intermixed, or misstated (sometimes on purpose).
Also, again, for some schools the offer is that we would really like you to consider our school, apply and be part of our team, though the coaches support for admissions may not be needed or may not be available for that school.
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To me, the recruiting process at say a high end NESCAC, is a bit different than say a local D3 state college, or some other private D3 schools in which acceptance is not really an issue. I am not making a judgment on the school quality, just that in those cases where acceptance is often not an issue, there may not be the pressure to commit and apply ED as coaches support may not be needed, or the slot system or tips with admissions may not be a formal policy as it is in the NESCAC.
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but the process is the same. same could be said a power 5 d1 vs a low level d2 or naia team. timelines may be accelerated, expectation of a verbal commitment may be earlier and pressure to apply or sign might feel different but the process is the same. My daughter was recruited by schools at all levels and from mid level d1s and Ivy and top UAA/NESCACs to regional, rolling admissions d2 schools. the process is the same - what the coach can offer changes
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Understand, valid points. I suppose I was getting at more how the accelerated timelines and pressure to commit that goes along with it can vary. Also a recruit/student is looking for an offer with support to help assure that they get accepted to the top end schools, which may not factor in with other schools.
I had a kid that was recruited high end D1s, top Ivies and many other schools. The timeline for the Ivy commitment was accelerated vs. some other D1s, and some other schools there was not any concern about being admitted.
And as you and others have stated, timelines can vary by sport as well.