8 for the women’s swim team alone or did he mean both women and mens’ swimming and diving? My kids sports were not swimming but they were team sports with large roster sizes, so 8 for a women’s swim team is surprising given how few spots there were for team sports (with the exception of football).
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I don’t think it is at all unusual for information from the OP to keep changing as the process continues and he and daughter learn more about the schools, how recruiting works, and how D’s opinion of the schools and teams changes as she actually researches and visits the schools.
When OP first posted, he’d make statements like “she’s going to ED to 4-5 schools” and then he learned that that isn’t possible. We (as a community) pointed out that some schools aren’t that easy for a domestic student to get to and really a long haul for an international so that factor should go into the decision making process. Several of us said there are a lot of schools where she could swim, in all the divisions, but OP said she’d rather pick a top ranked school and not swim, like Tufts or Stanford, than swim at a school they don’t consider top ranked academically.
I think those are all valid choices as long as OP and D know the score. I don’t think they did at first but I do think 1300 posts later that they do. The one thing I do not think they understand is just how remote Grinnell is, how far the swimmers have to travel to away meets, and how long it takes to get through Iowa in the winter. It may be a price the D is willing to pay to go to a top school and swim, but I really suggest they visit remote schools before agreeing to attend. (I admit my own prejudice against really small, rural schools which I found very hard to get my kids to as they didn’t have cars to take to school).
I expect there to be even MORE changes and circling back and reconsiderations in the next few weeks. That’s how the process works for many. She may meet someone while swimming this summer who tells her “OMG, don’t go THERE” or a coach who just happens to see her and says “Please consider my school, and while we aren’t Top 20, we do have a fabulous biology program” and she might take those opinions to heart.
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I don’t know which school @nivo is referring to but some of the schools I am familiar with have 6 or 7.
8 recruiting spots is a little large, but might not be too out of the norm if the team is down a few members to start with. For example, if you get 8 recruits per year–some of them divers–and keep them all on the team, have an 8 lane pool, it works out to 3-4 swimmers per lane. Thats not too many if there is a full coaching staff and the coach of a women’s team is under pressure to keep the roster size up.
Just to clarify, my post also refers to swimmers with more modest PRs who therefore targeted schools where their times put them at the top of the potential recruit pool.
So to be clear, those that were not the top swimmers adjusted their search so they would still be amongst a coaches top choice but in a different tier of schools/teams. They still had very successful and fairly straightforward recruitment paths.
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^^THIS^^
Good advice is hard to find.
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The coach might get to add 8 or more recruits but that doesn’t mean the coach is going to get 8 spots or even 8 tips with admissions. Coach could very well be hoping 3-5 get in on their own ( and may have been hoping for a diversity recruit or legacy). No way to tell the academic make up of the other recruits.
Of course the coach could look at OP’s academic record and assess that she’ll get in without assistance and consider her a recruit (without support) but the coach should tell the OP that.
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This is key advice.
Contrast this with the OP’s approach that relies on wishing and hoping (my emphasis):
“We wish the process was much simpler indeed. You referred to top athletes whom the coaches wanted, and who were able to enjoy a simple and straight forward recruiting process. D24’s case outlines the journey of a hopeful athlete…”
There are programs/schools for which this would be the case for this athlete. It looks like in the recent tour they did not visit two of those schools that have shown the most interest, in favor of schools where there is little to no chance of being recruited or of being a walk-on.
Part of the issue seems to be related to: 1) not making accurate assessments of where the athlete’s times would rank on the current team and in the conference championship meet, and 2) having an overly optimistic view of how appealing a ranking on the current team outside of the top two or so in a given event would be to a coach.
This resulted in targeting swim programs that were at-best long shots (and a thread that is probably breaking a CC record for the number of posts on the topic of athletic recruiting).
For a thread where the OP started out trying to figure out exact probabilities for different scenarios and to reach a strong level of certainty, it has oddly devolved into hoping to get really lucky.
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The vast majority of college coaches are not faced with a very finite number of slots in the manner that the Ivy League and NASCAC coaches are. Some coaches are encouraged to bring in as many recruits as they think they can manage.
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Exactly. At some not highly selective D3 LACs, and even some D2 schools, the coaches function as AO proxies. Athletics and the athletes that make up the teams are literally keeping some of these colleges open and operating.
Someone should suggest this to the OP.
Applying to less prestigious schools in the US is not part of OP’s D’s strategy. They have repeatedly said prestige is important (often true for many international students) and if swimming doesn’t work out at a US school the D will attend McGill or Toronto, both highly likely admits for OP based on HS placement history (and both meet the international prestige hurdle). That all seems reasonable.
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Am I recalling incorrectly that the OP had earlier thought that varsity swimming at the Canadian schools would be possible?
It seems that the recent visit to McGill and a talk with the coach has thrown a wrench into that plan, with a swim team position somewhat doubtful. And Toronto has an even faster swim team.
If swimming on a varsity team is as central to the athlete’s college experience as has been expressed multiple times, given the new information, I’m not sure that the Canadian option is as viable as it was portrayed before.
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But the whole point of this thread was the OP looking for schools where being recruited for swimming would be the push over the top for admissions. If schools/coaches have 8-10 spots (or even more) I don’t think OP’s daughter would be having trouble getting coach’s support. OP is talking NESCAC and Ivy, and other low percentage admissions schools.
There are NESCAC teams that add 10 freshmen (or transfers) each year, like Middlebury women’s lacrosse. I don’t think the coach gets 5 slots and 5 tips. Maybe, but from everything I’ve read that’s not how it works. I think the coach knows from admissions after the pre-reads which applicants don’t need help and those students get in ED without support but then there is some swapping with other coaches or transfers or maybe legacy or some other hook. OP has already run into a few schools where even if she gets admission without help, the swim team doesn’t have spots for walk ons.
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It’s difficult for posters to know the details and what the D is thinking (and no, OP should not be asked to share school specifics in a public forum, which partially explains why the PM world of CC is so active).
My sense is if swimming were ‘central’ to her college experience the search may have been different. Seems to me that prestige of college > varsity swimming, if push comes to shove.
All the D can do is work with what she is given, control what she can, and make decisions as she goes and the process continues clarifying/refining. Same as what many students on recruiting journeys do every year.
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So here is where some confusion may be coming from
A coach saying a pre read would not be a problem is not the same as passing a pre read, even after coach has seen grades, scores, senior schedule, ect. A pass on a pre read can only come from admissions. A coach has nothing to do with a student passing or not passing aside from presenting the student to admissions for a pre read. Documents are sent to admissions, reviewed by admissions, and communication comes from admissions regarding passing or not.
That isn’t to say lots of veteran coaches have a solid idea of what to except and if your daughter’s grades and scores are as solid as you state in your other threads then I agree that passage is highly likely; but a coach saying that isn’t a positive pre read at all.
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Yes, I think the search should have been different with some compromises from initial parameters.
I’m going by their expressed motivations in these posts as examples.
From 3/30:
“yet if she isn’t able to find a college team to swim for, she will certainly consider that a failure because it is a sport she loves and which forms an important part of who she is, as an athlete, a team member and team captain. Club swimming indeed works for many, but it is not what she wants, and we respect that passion and commitment.”
From 4/3:
“being part of a sports team is a complete dynamic which D24 considers very important and crucial to her college experience, including the athletic, competitive, team and social aspects of it.”
But if perceived prestige trumps all else, then I guess wishing and hoping is what remains.
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I don’t presume to know for sure where OP’s D‘s priorities stand today, nor do I feel they owe us a day by day update of the situation as situations change often. It’s not for me to make a judgment that the search should look like X.
IMO OP’s D is doing far more than wishing and hoping.
Again, IME, this has not been an atypical recruiting journey to this point. And things are far from over.
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OP stated that one of their daughter’s candidate schools told her they wanted to add 8 recruits for next year. The only point that I wanted to make is that 8 isn’t an outrageous number for some teams in some circumstances. In other words, I find what the coach said to be believable. I am just sending along a bit of confirmation in that sense.
OP has made it very clear that his daughter has certain preferences and requirements for the schools she is looking at, and what she wants the coach to be able to give her. I respect that and wish her well. I don’t think she needs or wants recommendations from me on schools she should look at, so I am staying out of those types of discussions.
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I scoured CC athletic recruiting threads for months to glean valuable advice last year for my D23. I never encountered anything like this thread where there has been such an ongoing mismatch between targeted athletic programs and the athlete’s recruitablity.
The latest twist is that the Canadian schools that were described earlier as a sure thing for admissions and swim roster turned out not to be for the latter.
From 2/22:
D24 has a good idea of at least 1-2 school where her academics will get her in because it is the only parameter they look at, and she will be able to walk on to a very competitive swim team. That indeed impacts her target list.
From 3/15:
D24 slot at a top Canadian school, and in her preferred major, with both the necessary grades, SAT, and times to swim in the squad.
From 4/6:
D24 is confident in her verified ability to gain admission to Toronto/McGill (Canada) for environmental science and swim there, this sets a high academic bar for selecting other schools into her list
Now, it’s looking like McGill is iffy at best for securing a roster spot—and in any case, they won’t know until December or January. And Toronto, which has a faster swim program, has only been mentioned recently (on 5/1) on the non-swim list, so there was apparently bad news from them.
Given that the strategy for very reachy U.S. swim targets was predicated on this Canadian “firewall” that doesn’t seem as sturdy as assumed, I don’t think this has been a typical recruiting journey at all.
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