~40 of the best universities and liberal arts colleges are need blind and meet 100% demonstrated need and another ~20 while not need blind also meet 100% of demonstrated need, so for those that aren’t lucky enough to have been able to save the cost it’s still available.
However, each college has a different definition of “need” that they will “meet”. Also, most of the colleges in question require that students with divorced parents have both parents give financial information, which often locks them out of financial aid because the parents are often uncooperative. Most of the colleges in question are also highly selective.
@ucbalumnus, as Columbia was referenced, I was assuming that highly selective schools was the focus. Agree, that it’s a small pool of opportunities.
@EyeVeee It is very hard to know what anyone’s “special gifts” are without actually reading the person’s application. I don’t know how many times my daughter told me, “They aren’t that smart… I don’t understand how they got in.” My response was, “You have no idea how smart anyone is or what grades they got.” It is so easy to say that someone who got into a competitive school was nothing special, but the truth is, how do you know? You have no idea what that kid does.
@shortnuke I haven’t observed this among those who can afford an elite private, but I have noticed it among those who will need to take substantial loans for those elite privates. It is going to get harder and harder to get into state schools and the schools that are providing more substantial merit aid than other schools. If the government would only overhall it’s student loan program, schools would not have as much incentive to charge as much tuition as they do.
@shortnuke , That trend has been prevalent at my son’s all boys private school for quite a while. There are usually 35-45 NMF in each class, but the top students are all going to the state flagship, Alabama, Texas A&M, Fordham, Ole Miss and other schools that give substantial merit. One or two go to an Ivy, and every other year or so you have a student who gets a large scholarship like the Jefferson at UVA. It is a very practical parent base, many of whom can afford the tuition of other schools or have saved it, but they recognize their sons can study engineering, pre-med or pre-law at many places. For us, there will be no Ivy apps. The only reason I can think of to apply is if we wanted to use an Ivy as leverage for a merit scholarship increase somewhere else
Zinhead. $250k is so three years ago. Full Monty tuition room board fees if you are starting this fall is going to be $280k. 66+69+72+75.
And that’s without books travel personal etc.
Yes, people can get frustrated deciphering college admissions at highly selective holistic admission colleges from the point of view of an outsider (i.e. anyone outside the admissions office of the college in question). Consider the inputs to a student’s application to a highly selective holistic admissions college:
Observable and comparable (at least somewhat) inputs:
- Test scores.
- High school courses, grades, GPA, rank.
- Use of early admission programs.
- Race/ethnicity.
- Legacy.
- Athletic skill, if recruited.
Observable and difficult to compare (with other applicants to the college outside of one’s high school) inputs:
- Extracurriculars (including non-recruited athletic skill and work experience).
- Essays.
- Advantaged / disadvantaged background.
Non-observable (to the applicant) inputs:
- Recommendations.
- Unannounced institutional preferences.
- Selectivity differences by division or major.
(Of course, for some colleges and applicants, some of these inputs may move to different categories.)
Given this hierarchy, it is not surprising that test scores are heavily emphasized in discussions about college selectivity and admissions, with the other observable inputs close behind. But the rest of the inputs that are either difficult to compare or non-observable to the applicant may be very important to the college (particularly one where so many applicants are near the maximum possible in test scores and high school record), while being largely ignored by those discussing college selectivity and admissions from the outside.
But the rest of the inputs that are either difficult to compare or non-observable to the applicant may be very important to the college (particularly one where so many applicants are near the maximum possible in test scores and high school record), while being largely ignored by those discussing college selectivity and admissions from the outside.
Yup. But the discussions here always revert to stats, ECs and the perceptions hooks triumph, that hooks eliminate the need to “match” in other ways. (Other than athletes, which is a different thing.)
In fact, I still say, what sort of thinking a kid shows is one of the more important factors that can separate the top performers from the top kids who are compelling candidates.
Some of this is reflected in course choices and ECs. The kids who stretch, the ones who pursue certain experiences and balance, versus the easy things. But also, those who understand what that college offers them and what they offer it, who can write a good Why Us (or show it in other writing sections.) This is more than the rote, “I want to be an X and you will prepare me for that.” More than, “I get my best grades in math, so I think engineering might be fun.”
They may be young- and this is a challenge for them to understand. But the brightest can do it.
@rdtjgk I would agree with you in most situations…but my daughter will graduate with 71 other kids next month. She can name every one of them, will tell you if they are in honors, AP, regular, or not taking the major subjects. She knows their brothers and sisters by name, the colleges any of them attend (within the past 2 or 3 years), what nearly all of the parents do for a living, where most of them live, and probably dozens of other attributes.
You would be correct to if you want to argue that I might not be aware of a personal struggle…an illness…an extended family member with issues…lots of possible hidden items. But I do know the academic background.
Re #89
However, she does not know the quality of their essays and recommendations, or (even if known) how they compare to the overall applicant pools of colleges beyond the high school.
@EyeVeee I have to totally agree that the kids today know exactly what’s going on within their peer group. While my D is graduating with 300 other seniors the Century Honors Program she’s in at her HS accepts only 75 kids per year and requires them to keep a 3.6 GPA, you best believe they know exactly who’s getting what grade and how good or bad they are doing, it’s that competitive. And to add to the pressure the school posts every single name, rank and serial number on this huge board every quarter. Who made Principals list, who made Honor society, who is doing what ECs. I have never figured out why they add this additional pressure but it definitely keeps that group on top of their toes.
UCI and UCSD will become next UCLA/UC Berkeley in terms of the difficulty in getting admitted. So many smart kids who did not get into UCLA/UC Berkeley STEM majors are going to UCSD/UC Irvine. Noticed fewer applicants to UCLA and UC Berkeley and fewer students who are accepted at my kid’s high school in CA.
Not 100% sure but US Newsweek ranking has 6 UC colleges in top 50 ranks: Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCI and UC Davis. That’s frankly incredible. Even though many people in CA sees issues with UC colleges, I guess rest of the country still want to come to UC colleges. Even a non-UC, Pepperdine, is ranked 50th above GW or Univ of Illinois or Univ of Wisconsin at Madison or Univ of Washington? Incredible.
I know what you mean @EyeVeee. My kids go to a similarly small school and everyone knows just about everything about everyone, pro and con. Even my daughter who’s in 9th grade can tell you where most 12th graders are going. A consequence seems to be that the worst-case-scenario stories are getting an amazing amount of focus and discussion.
The fact that several UCs are highly selective should not be too surprising when one compares their enrollment to the state population. California has a much larger population than most other states, so a flagship state university that is sized proportionately to those of other states with smaller populations would be the size of several UCs. Of course, California has multiple UCs instead of one really huge one.
@websensation I’d have to agree that competition to get into these UC’s and even the top few CSU’s has soared. It’s hard to believe that UCLA received over 100,000 applications - competing for approx 8,000 spots. It’s even harder to believe that SDSU received over 85,000 appllications - also competing for approx 8,000 spots. It’s very competitive across the board.
re #92, California is home to 12% of the population of the United States, so it makes some sort of sense that 12% of the nation’s top universities would be in California.
UC Irvine: A/BSA issued the following list of demands:
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“Similar to EOP students and International students’ housing guarantees, we demand that ALL African Black Caribbean identified students have a 4 year housing guarantee to live in the Rosa Parks African American Themed House. Guaranteeing this would provide a viable living option to all (Afrikan/Black/Caribbean) identified students regardless of housing status and college affiliation. We demand a written agreement by the opening of housing applications in April 2017.”
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“We demand the university remove the beds and release the Rosa Parks African Themed House lounge so it can serve its original purpose. We demand the lounge be returned by Fall 2017.”
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“We demand that the university fund the ENTIRE exterior of the Rosa Parks African American Themed House being painted Pan-Afrikan colors (Red, green, and black) by the start of Spring quarter 2017. These Pan Afrikan colors represent Black liberation, and represent our diaspora, and the goals of our people.”
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“We demand that all new incoming students from 2017-2018 school year forward (first years and transfers) go through a mandatory in-person diversity competency training in the event that the online module is not implemented by JUNE 2017. We demand that the training be reviewed and approved by A/BSA board every two years. We demand that every incoming student complete this training by their first day of class.”
The Rosa Parks house is currently offered as housing for any student interested in “historical, present-day, and future experiences of predominately Black/African American peoples,” UCSC’s website states.
University spokesman Scott Hernandez-Jason said housing is a concern for all students.
“We are working to increase the number of beds on campus through a student housing initiative,” he told KSBW Wednesday.
The only television news interview that protesters have agreed to so far was with the national Fox News network.
“Having that red, black and green house in the middle of Stevenson College, which is a predominantly white-serving college, is a matter of symbolism and visibility,” A/BSAleader Imari Reynolds told Fox News host Tucker Carlson.
The African/Black Student Alliance said its mission as an organization is “the liberation of all black people,” and to serve as “a place and space for Afrikan/Black/Caribbean students to learn together, to teach together, to offer support for the various racialized macro-and-microaggressions, and also to challenge each other around some harmful ideologies we may hold toward practicing a fuller love for ALL Black people.”
Students asserted that their building takeover should be described as a “reclamation,” not “occupation.”
Source: http://www.ksbw.com/article/students-uc-santa-cruz-building-takeover-enters-day-3/9606211
That is UC Santa Cruz, not UC Irvine.
@ucbalumnus - re # 90…you would be wrong.
I actually removed this from the first draft…but my daughter is a very strong writer (the school has asked to publish her essay in their marketing materials). They (the senior class) got together as a group last August (organized by the English department/ counselors at school) over 3 days and write their essays. They aren’t the final ones, but they tend to form the basis of final essays.
Subsequently, my daughter was asked by friends for help. Essays, presentations, projects…she knows who can write.