All Ivies up BIG - Change Strategy?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>This year has been a watershed year for the Ivies and other top schools. Of the stats that have come in so far, Princeton is up 17% (although it was down big last year), Harvard 15%, Brown 10%, Duke 7%, Dartmouth 7%, Georgetown 6%, Columbia 4%, Northwestern 4%, Yale down 1% (off of a record year). In turn the acceptance rates are going to be at or near record lows at all of these.</p>

<p>My theory is that if you want to go to a top school that applying to six-seven schools total (and a couple of these)is not enough anymore (it made sense maybe 10 years ago when accept rates were double these). I think something like 8-11 is a better number to hedge your bets as I am sure that classes will be stronger everywhere (all the way down the list). I would also be more likely to apply ED, since at least this year it seems that it actually was an advantage (with ED acceptence rates from 20-35% over RD accept rates of 5-12% for most of these). </p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

2

<p>What I have read is that once one applies to more than about 8 schools, one's success of admission drops. Why? Probably students who apply to a lot of schools don't have the time to carefully research the schools or to carefully fill out their applications.</p>

<p>They probably end up not tailoring their essays and short answers to the schools they are applying to. In addition, they may make careless errors putting the wrong college's name in their responses.</p>

<p>In interviews, too, they are not likely to impress because they'd sound more like, "I am trophy hunting," than "I am interested in the type of education that your particular institution offers."</p>

<p>I see students lots of time on CC posting about applying to 15 or more schools, and what has stood out about those posts is that the students seem to view college admissions as lotteries and to assume that the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances of acceptance. That simply isn't true.</p>

<p>If one has the stats for admission to a top school, IMO the more time and effort one spends finding schools that are good matches for one's aspirations and the more effort that one spends tailoring one's application to the schools, the better one's odds are of getting acceptances. "Tailoring" also means having recommendations and supplemental materials that highlight things that would impress that particular college.</p>

<p>Teachers may be willing to tailor one or two recommendations instead of providing the same letter to be used to all of the schools that an individual student is applying to. However, they aren't likely to do this for 15 letters for one student.</p>

<p>In addition, GCs may be willing to make the extra effort to reach out to adcoms to help a student get into the student's top school. GCs, aren't going to, however, do this 15 times for one student.</p>

<p>As for ED, the big risk is that students' perspectives change a great deal from October until April, and a student who successfully applies ED to up their odds of getting into a top college may find themselves unhappy in April with the choice they are stuck with.</p>

3

<p>
[quote]
They probably end up not tailoring their essays and short answers to the schools they are applying to. In addition, they may make careless errors putting the wrong college's name in their responses.</p>

<p>In interviews, too, they are not likely to impress because they'd sound more like, "I am trophy hunting," than "I am interested in the type of education that your particular institution offers."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh please...colleges could care less about either of those things.</p>

4

<p>Yeah to be honest, I agree with Xantos. I think most creative high school students can tailor an essay to fit a school in an afternoon. I do agree with you (Northstarmom) on the teachers not giving as much into 15 recs, but bumping the number of schools from 7 to 9 or 10 isnt going to do this.</p>

<p>I am just saying adding a couple of schools might make more sense. Also, that doesnt mean you have to apply to every Ivy, rather it could mean you could apply to three or four reaches rather than two, four matches rather than three, and two safeties.</p>

5

<p>Certainly it's possible for students to tailor essays in an afternoon. However, the type of students who are applying to Ivies and similar schools have demanding academic schedules and demanding ECs and typically don't have the time to tailor 15-20 essays. </p>

<p>Virtually everyone applying to more than 8 or so schools will have to take some major shortcuts, and those shortcuts are what will hurt the student when it comes to getting acceptances.</p>

<p>The other thing that can hurt them is being stressed due to having a lot of interviews. There's a big difference between how students react to interviews when they don't have many and how students react when they have 10 interviews to do. The students with many interviews tend to (from what I have seen on these boards) react with irritation of cynicism not excitement or interest about being interviewed. That attitude will bite them in the interview.</p>

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<p>I am saying 8-11, not 15. Personally, the schools I got into were the ones I didnt go to on my college visit. All I am saying is even from past experience a lot of the successful candidates I have seen applied to a good number and variety of schools. One of my best friends applied to 2 crazy reaches and a bunch of lower matches, got rejected from his top two and ended up at a place that he probably could have done better than. Another friend added Cornell and Northwestern at the last minute, and those happened to be the two schools he go into.</p>

<p>With numbers getting higher and higher every year, the ivies are getting to be almost a crapshoot, and others are not too far behind. It makes sense to hedge your bets.</p>

7

<p>Slipper, Princeton and Harvrd's apps reached all time highs this year (Ps drop last yr followed a huge surge the year prior).
The good news is that Princeton announced it will increase its class size over a 3 year period starting next year. Some of the other IVYs may follow suit (the quality of the applicant pool has made it an easy decision).</p>

8

<p>I am not saying that to optimize their chances of getting into places like Ivies, students have to visit the schools. I am saying, though, students need to familiarize themselves with the schools and consequently write their applications in a way that will highlight what they have to offer that particular school.</p>

<p>I repeatedly see students here posting long lists of colleges that they have applied to and often those colleges have little in common. It seems that the students didn't think through what they wanted out of a college experience, but simply applied to whatever schools seemed the most prestigious. Your friend's applying to Northwestern and Cornell makes sense since those colleges have a lot in common and attract similar students. </p>

<p>I have had students come to Harvard interviews who lacked basic information about Harvard. One doesn't need to have visited there to know that Harvard is in a big city or has a student newspaper or has hundreds of clubs and other organizations. Yet, I have had students who seemed to think that Harvard was in a quiet suburb, has a Wharton-like undergraduate business school or who claimed to have strong interests in ECs, but had never taken the time to check the website to find out what options were available for students interested in that EC.</p>

9

<p>"The good news is that Princeton announced it will increase its class size over a 3 year period starting next year. Some of the other IVYs may follow suit (the quality of the applicant pool has made it an easy decision)."</p>

<p>I think that Princeton is making a big mistake. One of the things that makes Princeton special is its emphasis on undergraduate education.</p>

<p>I know that Harvard has in the past considered expanding the size of its class, but has always decided not to because it believes that what makes Harvard Harvard is its relatively small size (compared to how big it would be if it didn't reject so manyb outstanding students.)</p>

<p>As an alum, I would be upset if Harvard expanded its size. I am surprised that Princeton alum apparently don't mind Princeton's expanding.</p>

10

<p>Northstarmom, </p>

<p>Unfortunately, I feel as if many students apply to Harvard based on its name alone. It takes only an hour to look at a website or read a guidebook to prepare for an interview. As a Dartmouth interviewer, I have yet to experience this, although I have only done it for a year. </p>

<p>As for expanding class size, I am with you. I know my first year at Columbia, "enlargement and enhancement" was a controversial issue, yet it took hold. Part of the reason I chose Dartmouth as a transfer was its size and the community that size created. </p>

<p>My point on school types though is basically there are enough similar schools of a certain genre that 8-11 makes sense.</p>

11

<p>I'd say that next to Harvard, Columbia gets the most "what the heck" applications, because of its location.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, More than anything else what has made Princeon the most selective non-technical school in the nation (according to the Princeton Review, US News, the Atlantic Monthly etc) is its TOTAL undergraduate focus. Princeton is not expanding its grad population, only its undergrad population. So as long as that balance continues, it will not lose what has made it #1.</p>

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<p>Still, the relatively small size of its undergrad population is something that gives Princeton a big advantage. I am surprised that they would consider expanding. </p>

<p>Yes, it turns away lots of wonderful students, but it's not as if those students lack good college options. There are many excellent colleges in the country that are happy to accept them.</p>

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<p>Plenty of quality schools are small. You're missing the point. It's the combination of a Total undergaduate focus with the financial support and resources of a major university. In essence P has the best of both worlds.</p>

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<p>I agree with you. Based on my own personal situation I felt it would be in my best interest to increase my number of applications. I researched the best that I could and put my best effort into the apps I did submit. Just judging from my own HS, I do think that classes will be stronger, like you said: all the way down the list.</p>

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<p>You cannot say that increasing your number of applications does not have a good shot at increasing your acceptances. If I apply to 20 schools of type A caliber, I have better chance of getting accepted to more schools than if I apply to 10 schools of type A caliber. Not all schools require an interview, and certainly not all schools will even ask you for one. Creating an essay is the only real "personal" engagement that you must make with the college, and that can be whipped up in an afternoon, as stated before...my dad and I have talked about this, and he always told me, "If you don't apply, you can't get accepted."</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
Personally, the schools I got into were the ones I didnt go to on my college visit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Slipper-
I am sure you didn't mean it this way, but it sounded like you are saying that the only schools that accepted you are the ones that didn't see you face-to-face. LOL</p>

18

<p>Haha Jym,</p>

<p>But with no interviews or anything substantial, how the "heck" do they know who I am. Also, as a transfer I got into every school I applied to (Dartmouth, Harvard, Duke, Brown)...also schools I never visited on the first trip but had the luxury of experiencing my first year.</p>

19

<p>Just apply to all the Ivies. That's eight schools.</p>

<p>You'll get into one. Forget safeties.</p>

<p>j/k</p>

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<p>Slipper-
All kidding aside, I am really fascinated. I apologize that I do not know the history. Could you repeat it? Where did you start college, and which schools did you apply to out of HS? What year did you transfer out, and how did you do in your first year(s) at college # 1? If I follow correctly (and I may not be), did you start out at Columbia and transfer to Dartmouth?? Are there statistics on the percent of transfer applicants who get into colleges?? Colleges do want to keep their class sizes up, and if they lose students, they have a strong incentive to fill the empty slots in the upper classes. To take a student who was good enough to be accepted at a good school, and who then demonstrated their abilities by doing well at that good school, should be a fairly safe bet for most colleges. When you say you had the luxury of experiencing your first year, I take it that you visited these schools during your freshman year of college. I think as a college student visiting another college, or friends at another college, you get a slightly different perspective than a HS kid doing the college tour. I'd really be interested in hearing a bit more about your experience.</p>