Take That, You State Legislators!

<p>“Or they can try to add more OOS students to the mix, so as to raise the average tuition revenue per student without sticking it to in-state students, but at the cost of reducing opportunities for in-state applicants.”</p>

<p>“I don’t think its residents should shoulder more of the cost of education until the UC administrators can explain why the cost of educating students is rising so quickly”</p>

<p>The subset of its residents who are in-state applicants that are crowded out by full-pay OOS students may likely be shouldering more of the cost of their education. They will likely have to go out of state or private themselves. And wonder why they are paying taxes towards a UC system that is educating rich outsiders in preference to them.</p>

<p>Money, I agree with you. If all that happens when states reduce funding for state Us is that each state increases % of OOS, then residents start asking – why are we paying state taxes, if more and more kids have to go OOS or private. Bottem line, state legislatures have to do more to make certain instate kids get preference along with reducing costs.</p>

<p>California should consider selling one or two UCs to China.<br>
Rename Cal “Peoples University, Berkeley”. Cut a deal with the Chinese to reserve 20% of spaces, minimum, for full-pay California residents (with a per-capita kick-back to the state). Wealthy families from all over America would seek California residency just for the chance to send their children to “The PUB”, with its wonderful Chinese language immersion and global networking opportunities. Every geeky Chinese high school student would dream of the chance to meet a rich, attractive Californian at The PUB, get married, start up an international trading firm, and pay exorbitant state taxes to live in La Jolla or Marin County. Win-win for China and the state of California!</p>

<p>I looked up the in state tuition CA rates online and they seem really low, at least compared to instate rates in for the states around me (NY, NJ). Am I missing something?</p>

<p>I checked out this website
<a href=“http://collegestats.org/colleges/all/lowest-instate-tuition[/url]”>http://collegestats.org/colleges/all/lowest-instate-tuition&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>In the UC system, the trend seems to be decreased state funding while the system asks for increases each year. There was a series of articles in the LA Times - including one by the Chancellor of UCLA - that laid out some of the budgetary problems. One of those articles (can’t find now) explained that student tuition and fees had quadrupled over the past 5 years while state funding was only cut by 10 per cent. One LA Times article said that increasing tuition is not only replacing state dollars but it is providing additional money to schools. I understand that student money replaces taxpayer support in times of economic difficulty (the same thing is happening here in GA) but I wonder where the additional money is actually going.</p>

<p>Not surprised that the number of OOS students is increasing. They told us to expect that. I just can’t see why any OOS student would pay LAC prices for a big university experience, especially a big university that is in the middle of budget flux…</p>

<p>Mom2K, according to the Associated Press story, the number of OOS in the UC system increased 4% this year to approximately 18%. Individually, total enrollment of OOS and internationals for 2011 is expected to be 31% at UCB, 30% at UCLA and 23 at UC San Diego for example.</p>

<p>Without commenting on the actual thread there are some things I think I can shed light on:</p>

<p>1)The biggest rise in college costs is for salaries and such of staff, especially medical benefits. Medical costs have been rising much faster then the rate of inflation, and it has hit colleges as well as private employer. The cost of benefits and such is skyrocketing.</p>

<p>2)Many schools also have been facing rises in infrastructure costs, like insurance, maintenance, heating and cooling costs, etc, and again much of this is going higher then inflation.</p>

<p>3)Also keep in mind that schools generally fund aid and other programs from their endowment returns, they plan on a certain rate of return and use that money for various things (depends on the endowment and its terms; some schools can use the endowment only for things like aid, others can use it for operating or capital costs). With the financial debacle in 2008, a lot of endowments were trashed (not sure where they are today, given the rise in markets).</p>

<p>Not saying there aren’t ineffiencies and such, just saying these are some of the factors.Service industries like colleges, where much depends on human interaction, tend to be more expensive since economies of scale and rises in productivity tend to be lower then other things. </p>

<p>Plus state schools have faced an influx of talented students I suspect (just my guess) who due to economic factors either are priced out of top private schools or don’t want to build up debt to go to one, and it may have strained them as well.</p>

<p>As far as pensions go, the same problem that hit private industry with traditional pensions has hit the public sector as well. With traditional pension plans, employers are supposed to regularly contribute to the plan as well as employee contributions, and those funds are invested to build them up, so that when people retire there is money to pay their pensions. </p>

<p>In theory, pension plans are supposed to be fully funded, but they often have not. In the 1980’s, with the whole leverage buyout phase (and an administration favorable to those doing these things), one of the big points of contention were the pension funds, they were allowed to be treated as a cash asset of the company being taken over, and with leverage buyouts the pension funds were often part of the plan in how to buy a company, sell off its parts and the pension funds in effect became like cash (as a result, many private pension plans went underfunded or unfunded entirely, and ended up being covered by a federal government program, that screwed those in the pension plans because they don’t pay 100% on the dollar from what I understand). Companies also underfunded the pension plans, they were given permission, as a cost savings, not to fund fully what they needed to do, arguing that the cost savings would allow them to pay into the funds “down the road”. Do a google on unfunded pension liabilities to see what I am talking about.</p>

<p>With government pensions, much the same thing. As states more and more started running into problems balancing their budgets, due to a number of factors, instead of facing reality, they did what politicians do best, they pulled a slight of hand (and before anyone thinks i am making a political shot at any one party or group, forget it; they all did this, ‘fiscally responsible’ conservatives, “tax and spend liberals”, members of the ‘middle road’, all did this). In NJ, it started a number of years ago, when to balance budgets without cutting services and such, they started using pension funding as a piggy bank, so instead of putting x hundreds of millions as a pension payment, they in effect put an iou saying “i’ll pay that later”…problem is they never did, and that 100’s of millions wasn’t collecting investment returns, so down the road, when people start drawing pensions, suddenly there isn’t enough to pay these from the interest on the funds, so they have to ‘fill in the gap’ with payments from the budget (in effect, the ‘loan’ is coming due). It is much like social security, where to hide budget deficits, especially since the 80’s, excess funds in ss not needed to pay beneficiaries were ‘borrowed’ (put a security note in its place)…problem is, when that money is needed, guess what? It isn’t there. Treasury notes pay interest (which comes out of, ta da, the federal budget) but the problem is that if there is 100 billion in t notes there, that generates about 5 billion in interest, while they may need 20 billion to pay beneficiaries above incoming payments for that year…you get the drift). </p>

<p>When people talk about the cost of unfunded pension liabilities, this is what it means. These liabilities can also happen if the rate of return of investments doesn’t match expectations, but with government pension benefits the real issue has been that many states underfunded them to help balance budgets, and now the bill is coming due. </p>

<p>The reason states want to switch to 401k’s is an obvious one, the employee contributes, and while the state can contribute, they also a lot more easily can say “we don’t have the resources this year”, much as private companies in bad years can reduce or stop their matching portion. In a sense it is much more honest, but also I suspect it is basically getting rid of any kind of responsibility towards employee pension costs and leaving it to the employee, which is a way to cut benefits without appearing to.</p>

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That website’s not accurate. It states that the current tuition for UCLA is $7,165 but it’s actually $10,781 (planned to increase by $1K for next year). It states that the current tuition for SUNY-Geneseo is $5,616 but it’s actually $4,970 (tuition) plus $1,430 (fees).</p>

<p>Well one reason maybe instances like the following regarding a recently appointed UCSC chacellor:</p>

<p>"Denton was the first openly gay, and at 45, the youngest person to be appointed to be chancellor in the University of California system by UC President Robert Dynes.She succeeded Martin Chemers, who served as acting chancellor following the resignation of M. R. C. Greenwood who became the University of California Provost.</p>

<p>Denton’s recruitment package would eventually include a $275,000 salary, $68,750 as a moving allowance, improvements to the chancellor’s on-campus residence which included a $30,000 dog pen initially budgeted at $7,000. Included in the deal was a tenured professorial appointment with a $192,000 salary, and a housing assistance allowance of up to $50,000 for her partner, Gretchen Kalonji.</p>

<p>Although much of the 7,000 square feet (650 m2) residence was used for campus functions, the approximately $600,000 renovation cost, and overall cost of Denton’s recruitment brought criticism. This contrasts sharply against increasing student fees, up 79 percent in four years, and low pay raises for clerical and service staff."</p>

<p>This instance became very public…now multiply this behavior by all those cases which are less well known and it is clear that funds provided to some institutions are not stewarded with care. IMO California does not have a revenue problem…it has a spending problem!</p>

<p>ok I did some googling. ucla is around the same price instate as uva and u mich. Are there any other public schools you would compare it to? I don’t think geneseo is the same type of school. I looked up U texas Austin and U florida, also around 10K. Rutgers with fees is over 12K. I think that might be the going rate around the country for highly regarded state universities. It doesn’t seem like the cal universities are that far off.</p>

<p>^^ California has a multi-tiered system from CCs to CSUs to UCs. The cost of tuition of the CSUs is much less than for the UCs. For example, the tuition for SDSU is $5,990.</p>

<p>Dietz, thank you. When college chancellors have no problem spending 30,000 on a dog pen, no reasonable person can have any confidence in their ability to control spending. Denton should be canned.</p>

<p>I was looking at Penn State and Pitt prices. Technically, they’re not the “state” universities here, but they’re considered by most as such, and the instate tuition is nowhere as low as the figures being thrown around like 10 or 12K. And there’s more belt tightening or hikes likely based on the latest from Harrisburg. I always assumed CA was traditionally in the high side in all matters concerning cost. It appears to be a combo of both lack of cost control on the part of administration and the Iran high-gas-price syndrome on the part of consumers.</p>

<p>I agree with do3, the tuition seems in-line, or even slightly less, than comparable schools across the country. I’m guessing the complaining is because of recent increases, not overall costs. Of course it also seems like further cost controls could be enacted.</p>

<p>What I have been hearing is that OOS kids are getting a warmer welcome with their $s when they are full pay at a lot of state schools. My son’s stats were not that great and ordinarily I would have thought he would have had a problem at schools like PItt, Penn State, UDel, UMDCP, and he was accepted to all of them. His best friend was elated to be accepted to UCLA which was stretch for him. So I can believe that OOSers with the extra bucks are being welcomed.</p>

<p>I know that MIchigan, VIrginia and North CArolina have quotas for OOS, and they tend to go right up to the max, and are very upfront about that. It isn’t the money, however, but the stats they covet. The OOS pools for those schools are stronger than in state kids. I don’t know if that is the case for the UCs or for the SUNYs. With the SUNYs, a lot of the OOS kids accepted are athletes, and there are so few OOSers in most of the SUNYs, with Binghamton having 15%, still not a large number since that is not a large school, that OOS test score stats are skewed by that. I would not mind getting more OOS kids to boost the name recognition of the SUNYs. It can only help the reputation of the schools, as they are not well known at this time.</p>

<p>I’ve been surprised at the posts this year from OOS kids going to the UCs. I’m not wild about those big schools for undergrads; I feel the same way about any big state Us, especially OOS ones, but where I am particularly surprised is that kids know about the UCs other than LA and Berkeley. Perhaps these are kids and families who once lived in CA. Until recently, I really had no idea what the other UCs were other than Santa Cruz. I am curious what the attraction is to these expensive, big schools that are so far away from the east coast. A lot of Asian students like them because of the closeness to where they live, I know.</p>

<p>^^ That’s a little surprising since I think UCSD (San Diego) is more well known than the other UCs other than UCLA, UCB.</p>

<p>One thing California will always have going for it is the best climate in the USA as well as interesting geography which attracts some people (me, for example). Frankly, if I lived in any other part of the country I’d move to California since I like it so much despite some of its issues. Apparently a number of other people feel the same way (although some do get fed up with some of the social aspects and move elsewhere).</p>

<p>California still has a lot of corporate headquarters in some of the more technical areas like computers, semiconductors, networking, etc. as well as bioTech which also attracts not only people but helps with the education in those areas since there’s a symbiotic relationship between the nearby universities and business. As an example, Qualcomm’s founder, Irwin Jacobs, has given huge donations to the (appropriately named) Jacobs School of Engineering at UCSD and Broadcom’s co-founder, Henry Samueli, has given large donations to the Henry Samueli School of Engineering at UCLA just to name a couple. Jacobs used to be a prof at UCSD and Samueli received his BS, MS, PHD degrees from UCLA.</p>

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<p>Fees haven’t quadrupled over the past 5 years. The chart above indicates that state funding has dropped by 25% per student, though that’s also inflation adjusted.</p>

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<p>The job market will pick up eventually. They may not lose a ton of professors immediately, but it will surely hurt in the long run.</p>

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<p>I don’t believe Michigan has an OOS quota. If they do it’s awfully high, because OOS students typically make up about 35% of their incoming class. As for stats, I’d say the high-stats kids at Michigan (e.g., in the LS&A Honors Program) are about 50-50 in-state and OOS. It’s true, though, that the lower half of the class is predominantly in-state; at that end they’ll always take an in-state kid over an OOS applicant with comparable stats.</p>

<p>As for the money—you’d better believe it’s about money. Since its OOS tuition is roughly triple the in-state rate, Michigan actually hauls in substantially more tuition revenue from the 1/3 of the class that’s OOS than from the 2/3 that’s in-state. And that’s not by happenstance. As one of the best public institutions for many generations, Michigan has always attracted a lot of OOS students, and it was especially attractive to Jewish applicants from the NYC area back in the days the Ivies were imposing formal or informal quotas to limit Jewish enrollment. But Michigan’s OOS enrollment really took off in the1970s, when a cash-strapped state of Michigan began to cut back dramatically on subsidies. Enhancing tuition revenue by increasing OOS enrollment became one of the foundational elements of the new financial model Michigan was forced to develop, along with building its endowment through private philanthropy into one of the nation’s largest, and aggressive pursuit of outside research grants, to the point that externally-funded research now brings in about $1 billion annually. With many other states now slashing aid to higher education, many public universities are eying Michigan’s financial model with envy, and realizing they’re going to need to move in similar directions, but they’re starting far behind.</p>

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<p>I don’t think in-state residents are going to be “crowded out” of the state university system. They may not get into the particular school they want. Some may need to settle for UCSD or UCSB instead of Berkeley or UCLA, some may need to settle for Riverside instead of Davis or Irvine, some may need to settle for (horrors!) Merced. But the vast majority of in-state applicants who meet the objective criteria set by the UC system will get a place somewhere in the UC system, and if they don’t land that coveted spot at Berkeley or UCLA it will be because they were beaten out for that spot by someone with stronger credentials. And if they don’t get a spot in the UC system, they’ll get a spot in the Cal State system; or failing that, at a community college. Some may opt out of the state system because they think they have better educational options elsewhere; but no one will be “forced out.”</p>

<p>Some posters here write as if the taxpayers have already paid for the cost of their kid’s college education by virtue of paying taxes. Not so. You’ve paid taxes in the past for other Californians’ college education, and in the past that arrangement worked tolerably well; the universities kept in-state tuition low, and the legislature picked up most of the tab. But now the state is contributing substantially less than the cost of providing that education, so something’s gotta give. Either tuition needs to go up, or the percentage of OOS needs to increase, or the quality of the product needs to be diluted, or (probably) all three. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that as a taxpayer you’re “subsidizing” the OOS students who attend, because you’re not; your tax dollars are not even covering the cost of the California residents who attend. The OOS students will cover their own costs, maybe even provide a little surplus to help cross-subsidize the in-state students. They’re either saving you tax money, or helping to keep the cost of in-state tuition relatively low, because without the OOS tuition either in-state tuition would need to be even higher, or the legislature would need to fund the difference.</p>