Taking law courses as an undergrad?/paying for LS

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I go to college very close to U Penn. Is it possible to apply early to U Penn, and then take law classes at U Penn as a senior undergrad? Is it even wise?</p>

<p>And I posted this thread somewhere else but, here it is again:</p>

<p>So just how DO people pay for law school? Most people I run into seem pretty cleaned out after college, or sound like they will be. Many more than that have debt.</p>

<p>Do many people take on law school as debt, and then hope to pay it back with their jobs?</p>

<p>Thanks,
~nc</p>

2

<p>Put it this way, from what I understand, If you went to t14, You start out making riughly $150k a year from Big Law. If you are "poor" for 2-3 and put say $30k to student loans, you should be fine.</p>

3

<p>First of all, undergraduate students at Penn are generally not permitted to take classes at Penn Law unless they have actually been accepted and have submatriculated to Penn Law through the 6-year BA/JD program. </p>

<p>How do people pay for law school? Well, unless some great benefactor is going to pave the way for you, you take out loans, loans and more loans. Right now, the estimated costs of attending a top law school (and many law schools that are not considered to be "top") is between $60,000 and $70,000 per year (and I can tell you that the estimates for living expenses, etc. included in those numbers are generally on the very, very frugal side). The costs of attendance go up every year, and financial aid in the form of grants for law school is fairly paltry, so you can do the math on the amount of loans you would probably need to get through. Your federal Stafford loans will cap out at $20,500 per year and $138,500 (including undergraduate Stafford loans) in the aggregate, so any financial need beyond that will have to be satisfied using private loans, which are generally more expensive to obtain and bear higher interest rates. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you went to t14, You start out making riughly $150k a year from Big Law.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You stated this as if everyone can absolutely obtain a job in BIGLAW if they want one. The reality is that while most students in T14 law schools can probably obtain a job in BIGLAW somewhere if they want one, not everyone wants these jobs. There are many threads on this board describing BIGLAW and the kinds of hours that attorneys there work and the sacrificies that attorneys there are forced to make. There are also many threads on this board describing the salaries that attorneys make outside of the world of BIGLAW. </p>

<p>If you don't want to work in one of the few big cities (NYC, LA, SF) where BIGLAW firms uniformly pay this kind of money, or if you want to work outside of BIGLAW, the starting salary level tends to drop pretty quickly. I think that it's important that before applying to law school and taking out huge loans to attend that one very carefully think through what he or she wants to do when he or she leaves law school. Depending upon one's career goals, he or she may want to reconsider where he or she attends law school (state school?) and, given the financial landscape of loans and then career choices, he or she may want to reconsider whether attending makes sense for him or her. </p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that getting a job in BIGLAW is no guarantee that you will keep that job, particularly in a bad economy. Many BIGLAW firms have increased their starting salaries in order to keep up with their more financially able peer firms, and the result is that now, with revenue dropping, they are laying off associates both openly and stealthily.</p>

4

<p>Penn</a> Law: Law Classes are not just for Law Students</p>

<p>Actually, all Penn students can take classes at Penn Law. However, they don't get seats in the class unless there is an open spot after law students register. I'm not sure if you can take them as a student of another college though.</p>

5

<p>Sure, Venkat. Unfortunately, though, the reality is that first year law school classes are completely reserved to law students (and to some cross-registered graduate students), and those classes are the pre-requisites for many, if not most, of the other classes that you can take as a law student. For example, you can't (and shouldn't) take the upper level (though basic and foundational) course in corporations without having taken contracts and torts, which are required first year courses. </p>

<p>Many law school pre-requisites for upper level courses are not stated because it is presumed that everyone who signs up for them has already gone through the first year coursework or similar background work in other graduate courses. For some upper level courses, there are pre-requisites in addition to the first year coursework, in which case those pre-requisites are identified.</p>

6

<p>I'd like to amend what Sally said a bit by reminding everyone that most of the private T14 programs have loan forgiveness programs of what kind or another. The higher up the totem pole you go, the better the forgiveness programs. Some include some kinds of undergraduate debt as well. </p>

<p>So, if you really want to be a legal aid attorney or work for a NGO or be an ADA, etc. you need to consider not only the upfront cost of various law schools, but the availability of loan forgiveness as well in deciding which law schools are your best bet $ wise.</p>

<p>I haven't checked the numbers in some years, and Harvard's program is tied to cost of living. The last I knew though, you paid not a penny for any year (other than a judicial clerkship) in which you earned less than about $45,000, a sliding scale between that # and about $83,000 and 100% after that. I'm sure the current numbers are on its website.</p>

7

<p>You're absolutely right, jonri. </p>

<p>The other thing to understand about these loan forgiveness programs is that you still have to take the loans up front to be able to finance your education. So, you will have loans after law school which may or may not be forgiven over time. </p>

<p>It is important for someone hoping to qualify for a loan forgiveness program to carefully consider the requirements of the loan forgiveness programs at the law schools one is considering. They differ from law school to law school, and should one decide to change careers away from law or from working in a public interest position (as defined by the individual law schools), the availability of these loan forgiveness programs changes and may even require repayment of loans already forgiven.</p>

8

<p>Sally, you are riight in saying that the terms vary among schools and it's important to look at specifics. In some cases, though, you do NOT have to take loans upfront. And, in some others, it does not matter in the least whether you take a "public interest position" or whether you work as an attorney--as long as you are gainfully employed. </p>

<p>You do have to read the small print--it's important. I posted so young people who are interested in law school because they want to be a prosecutor or work in legal aid or do other public interest work won't think they have to choose the law school with the lowest "sticker price." </p>

<p>Moreover, the very top law schools do give financial aid for students from low income families--and unless you are about 27 or 28, family means your parents. </p>

<p>Again, specifics matter---but looking only at the "sticker price" for law school or merit money is IMO a huge mistake. That's really the only point I wanted to make.</p>

9

<p>How do you pay? Just keep taking debts and hope you get financial aid, and stay focused on your studies at a T14. Once you're out of law school, you can pay off those loans in just a few years. It takes some self-control but just keep taking them until you begin making the big bucks. Working on the side and causing your rank and GPA to drop by .3 points is def. not worth it, compared to future benefits</p>

10

<p>Ahh I didn't know about the loan forgiveness, thanks for that.</p>

<p>If Penn students can take classes in the law school, then it's possible that we can; my college has a cross-registration program, whereby we can enroll in undergrad classes at Penn and vice versa. I think I remember somebody from my college enrolling at a Penn law class, now that I think about it.</p>

11

<p>Under the College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007, if a you make 120 qualifying loan payments on a Federal Direct loan (including Federal Direct Consolidation loans) while working full-time for 10 years in public service employment, the unpaid balance on the loan is forgiven by the federal government.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/files/ejw_ccraa.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/files/ejw_ccraa.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

12

<p>
[quote]
If Penn students can take classes in the law school, then it's possible that we can; my college has a cross-registration program, whereby we can enroll in undergrad classes at Penn and vice versa. I think I remember somebody from my college enrolling at a Penn law class, now that I think about it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Keep in mind that law school admissions officers will see on your transcript that you took one or more law classes. I don't know if this will help you or hurt you, but I would be a little cautious about it. My guess is that you don't want to seem like too much of a gunner.</p>

13

<p>Sally, Isn't Law the one of the few practices where when the economy goes down, revenue goes up?</p>

14

<p>TF, that really depends on the practice area. A lot of the now unemployed lawyers who recently lost their jobs (as has been much discussed in the press) would tell you that the economy is not doing well and neither are they.</p>

15

<p>I do know about that; sadly, my federal loans are a small percentage of my total debt :)</p>