<p>This is such a hard choice for me. I might need your recommendation of life.</p>
<p>I want to go into medical school after I graduate. I am looking for a college where I can really focus, get good grades, be independent, and continue activities like musicals and volunteers. I think TCNJ can fit me because the college is small and peaceful and I feel like I can focus and not distracted. Also, since the classrooms are small at TCNJ, I may be able to build good relationship with professors. But also I want to go to UCSD because it has good pre-med program and I heard that medical schools know UCSD is trustable. My problem with UCSD is that the school is crowded in classroom (Actually, that is my assumption, I think it is crowded since it is big school). Plus, while I have few connections and friends in TCNJ, I don't know anyone from UCSD. </p>
<p>I assume you’re in-state for TCNJ, so it’d be much cheaper for you?
TCNJ is an excellent school that will prepare you well for med school.
Med school admission is not “prestige-dependent”, there’ll be no difference between UCSD and TCNJ for them - only your MCAT score and your GPA.
If cost isn’t a concern, then it depends whether you’d prefer working in CA or on the East Coast. However, you should review CA med schools’ residency rules (ie., whether your being from NJ makes it impossible for you to apply to CA public med schools). If your parents have the 55k/year to send you to UCSD without borrowing money, then it’s really a family decision.</p>
<p>Wow…why are so many OOS premeds considering a UC??? poor advising, no Committee Letters…really no advantages at all for an OOS student.</p>
<p>There is no advantage for you to go to a UC as a premed. Instead, it’s a negative. There are tooooo many premeds in that state. There’s a reason that too many Calif premeds have to go thru 2-3 admissions cycles to get ONE acceptance. Awful!</p>
<p>…and the premed prereqs are taught in huge lecture halls.</p>
<p>When it comes time to apply to med school, you will not want to have to travel across the country for all/most of your interviews during the SCHOOL YEAR. The UCs dont accept OOS med students, except UCLA and even that is iffy. </p>
<p>Being on the west coast as an OOS premed is just full of negatives. Hardly any private SOMs in the west, so traveling for interviews would be a pain in the tush…and very expensive.</p>
<p>Are your parents happily paying for a UC as an OOS student?</p>
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<p>What does that even mean? Yes, it has bio, chem, orgo, physics…and so does every other school…so what?</p>
<p>There isn’t a UC that has a “good premed program” because they have lousy advising and no Committee Letters.</p>
<p>Wow thank you so much, mom2collegekids and MYOS1634. Yeah, I checked up with UC student and their chemistry class size is over 300 students. Thank you so much for your advise mom, I learned a lot! </p>
<p>How many, or better yet, what percentage is ‘too many’? Do you have any concrete nos., because it’s a fact of life that many graduates from many universities have to go through 2-3 admissions cycles to gain entry to m-school. Even Harvard grads have to enroll in post-grad public-health masters programs and wait yearly admit cycles out. This is mainly on the applicant to prepare him/herself in all phases of the application process, and to make sure he/she is ready for the MCAT. Better to wait and be prepped than to try to jump into grad school right away. This isn’t only a problem with CA kids.</p>
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<p>Meh, this happens at just about all u’s that aren’t LACs. Why does it matter if some of these intro courses are taught to 20 or 300? Is the prof going to slow down for someone who doesn’t catch onto the material? Science classes need to have a certain pace to them; otherwise, the foundational learning, the groundwork for learning will be incomplete for a student and affect his/her later courses. </p>
<p>Even if these intro (or intermediate) classes are subdivided into many, for a medium sized u with, say, 7,000 undergrads, what would be the chances that the prof would have other teaching duties, with maybe one or two “sections” of the same class? This wouldn’t be sound for most u’s to do. So they try to merge however many need a particular class for a particular term if its a standalone course – unless it’s something like calculus where a good 1/2 of students will need these classes at some eventual point of their educations – and have a singular professor lecture with a decent no. of TA’s, who teach sections. Some schools restrict what would be a larger class to those who are, say, sophs, and who need the class for their majors and try to restrict enrollment in a particular course this way. But restricting a course means less experimentation by those who like a whole breadth of coursework. </p>
<p>I don’t feel badly for kids who have to sit in a class of 300 students. This is why they call them “lectures.” The prof is going to the podium and will lecture without interruptions because he/she needs to go through the specified material per academic term.</p>
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<p>I’m guessing that you meant that UC med-schools don’t accept applicants who’ve graduated from the UC’s but have origins from outside of CA. And why would they impose this? On one hand, UC’s undergraduate admissions is trying to enroll more non-residents, but on the other, its med schools would be rejecting its own. Doesn’t make sense. Residency doesn’t have any play in acceptance or denial. And this would be preposterous to believe that anyone who is born outside of CA has no chance for a UC med school regardless of what university he/she attended, and this would obviously have to be wrong also. </p>
<p><<<<
Meh, this happens at just about all u’s that aren’t LACs. Why does it matter if some of these intro courses are taught to 20 or 300? Is the prof going to slow down for someone who doesn’t catch onto the material? Science classes need to have a certain pace to them; otherwise, the foundational learning, the groundwork for learning will be incomplete for a student and affect his/her later courses.
<<<</p>
<p>It matters when you’re paying OOS rates. People put up with this for an instate or big merit discount…or super FA. </p>
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<p>state-owned med schools do NOT run like public undergrads. </p>
<p>State owned med schools have a vested interest in educating instate resident students because the goal is to educate doctors for that state. The state of Calif has too many med school applicants, so if the UCs started accepting OOS students (other than some MD/XXX, there would be a total uproar. That said, many states will not accept OOS med students with the exception of MD/XXX.</p>
<p>The med schools aren’t “rejecting their own”…they are accepting “their own”…their residents.</p>
<p>an OOS premed at a UC, will likely have to have 80%+ of his med school list from the midwest going east (his own state SOMs and the privates from Wisconsin going east). Since students don’t usually get much lead time to set up flights for interviews, being so far away would be a disadvantage.</p>
<p><<<<
How many, or better yet, what percentage is ‘too many’? Do you have any concrete nos., because it’s a fact of life that many graduates from many universities have to go through 2-3 admissions cycles to gain entry to m-school.
<<<<</p>
<p>In 2012 there were over 5300 Calif resident med school applicants, and there are only about 700 seats at a UC med school for first years.</p>
<p>It is not true that non-Calif grads at many non-Calif universities with med-school-worthy stats have to go thru 2-3 cycles. In other states, those with a 30+ MCAT and a 3.6 cum/BCMP GPA usually have an 80% chance of acceptance to at least one US MD med school.</p>
<p>Answer the second question: Is the prof going to slow down for someone who doesn’t catch onto the (science) material?</p>
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<p>I realize UC"s med schools aren’t run like its undergrad schools. UC’s m-schools have been privatized, with similar costs for all instate and non-residents. I do though think, though, that you are mistaking somehow that scholarships are more related to those who will be bound to practice in CA, or more locally for a period of time. However, even for the Geffen scholarship at UCLA Med, I was watching a student from Cornell who was interviewed. I doubt if his residence is in CA. (And I know what you said about UCLA med accepting more oos’ers.) I can’t see UCSF as accepting only instate residents. It is one of the more national med schools in the nation.</p>
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<p>I’ll do some research on this, and I’ll get back to you. </p>
<p>Sorry, I thought I posted this about 25 minutes ago.</p>
<p>I’m not comprehending a lot of what you write. I don’t know what this has to do with UC grads who attend m-schools out of state. You’re telling me here though that UC students have to wait 2-3 admission cycles to be admitted to m-school at UC m’s, or so it seems. </p>
<p>As poorly done as it is, did you see UCLA’s placement database for m-schools?</p>
<p>You’ll see UCLA grads attending med schools all over the country, including some state-run m’s as University of Buffalo, and many others. (UofB is the only one that stuck in my mind as I haven’t seen this db recently, and it seemed different that UCLA grads would attend there. But UofB is a state school. </p>
<p>In fact, most of UCLA undergrad premeds will indeed attend m-school outside of CA. I would like your response on at least this prior sentence, to try to gain an understanding of your thoughts.</p>
<p>TCNJ is probably much cheaper for you. And it has a great reputation for pre-med. And you think it is a good fit for you. The decision sounds pretty clear to me.</p>
<p>UCSF is not a “national med school,” but I would agree that it is different…for this conversation, I don’t think SF is relevant since the OP hasn’t expressed an interest in Academic Medicine (and at this point, that would likely be unwise anyway). Anyway, a number of its students are MD/XXX (academic medicine), and they usually get funding thru MSTP.</p>
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<p>Uh no. Why would you think that? OOS students pay about $12k more per year in tuition. (and no, they aren’t privatized)</p>
<p>It is not true that non-Calif grads at many non-Calif universities with med-school-worthy stats have to go thru 2-3 cycles. In other states, those with a 30+ MCAT and a 3.6 cum/BCMP GPA usually have an 80% chance of acceptance to at least one US MD med school.
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<p>Let me clarify… The first part was addressing the questioning of whether Calif does have a lot of resident applicants to med schools. 5300 is a LOT…and it’s the reason that a lot of stats don’t apply to Calif premeds.</p>
<p>In other states, a premed with a 30+ MCAT and a 3.6+ cum/BCMP GPA would have about an 80% chance of acceptance to at least one MD med school (assuming that the app list was reasonable, and not only the top 20 MD schools…lol). That stat does not apply to Calif premeds. </p>
<p>For an OOS premed, there is no reason to go to a UC. It is like borrowing trouble. There are far more pluses going elsewhere, including his own instate school (TCNJ). </p>
<p>For instance…If this student goes to TCNJ and gets an (equivalent on the new MCAT) MCAT 32 and GPAs around 3.8, and he has a reasonable app list, he will very likely have at least one MD acceptance. That cannot be said if he goes to a UC.</p>
<p>In Michigan 1712 instate premed applicants applied in 2012…and there are over 810 first year seats at Mich public SOMs. (Calif publics have LESS seats, yet the state has over twice as many residents applying to med schools.)</p>
<p>So, the state of Michigan alone has potential seats for half of its instate resident applicants. </p>
<p>Of course, Michigan residents also go elsewhere…but this shows Calif’s situation and why I say the state has too many resident med school applicants. </p>
<p>I needed to try to organize things because you seem to try to muddle things to try to disguise your outrageously out-of-bounds statements. So I numbered them 1-5, and if you would address them as such, I would be appreciative. Apparently it won’t take all five points, so I’ll have to cut and paste to another post points 4-5.</p>
<ol>
<li>I wanted you to prove that UC grads have to go through more admit cycles “2-3" than all other applicants. I wanted evidence that UC grads do take 2-3 cycles.</li>
</ol>
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<p>You did not address any supported proof, but went off into a tangent about other states’ grads having an easier go of being admitted. </p>
<p>I agree that CA’s m-schools are the toughest, or one of, for all states to which to gain admission, but this doesn’t show that UC’s premeds have to go through more cycles. That’s why most UC premed grads will indeed attend m-school oos.</p>
<p>Later you stated this:</p>
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<p>Wrt the bold, and leaving finances out of this true wrt UC grads? Again, it’s evident that most UC grads will attend m-school oos, and some at public institutions like the University of Buffalo.</p>
<p>And from above, where’s the proof that UC grads have to go through more admit cycles to be admitted? </p>
<ol>
<li>Regarding the your statement:</li>
</ol>
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</p>
<p>we had this conversation:</p>
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</p>
<ol>
<li>Later, we had this conversation:</li>
</ol>
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<p>You’re assuming in the last part, immediate enrollment in m-school. I knew an engineering student who had to take an ungodly amount of credits to graduate in spring and attend m-school after the summer (or during late summer). I think the best strategy is for med-school applicants to wait one admit cycle out and apply after putting all their things in order. I think these students, have a better chance of being accepted.</p>
<p>But this still doesn’t address why you felt that the UC’s m’s didn’t accept oos applicants, which is false. That’s why I brought up the Geffen Scholarship thing to maybe bind them to CA for a few years. This scholarship probably should be for CA residents or those who might be willing to practice in CA, along the lines of what you’re saying. I can see other states that are hurting for healthcare professionals doing this, but I can’t see the UC m-schools doing this because this would hurt the quality of UC’s m-schools.</p>
<ol>
<li>Privatization of UC’s M-schools</li>
</ol>
<p>I looked at three of UC’s m-schools, Davis, LA, and SF.</p>
<p>Here’s the breakdown of all, rounded, with ranges to signify differences in each m-school:</p>
<p>Tuition and Fees Instate (inc. Books and Health Ins) $19,000-23,000
Total with Supplemental Professional Fee $39,000-43,000
Total with Living Expenses, In-state Residents $59,000-64,000
Total with Non-Resident Fee, $71,000-76,000</p>
<p>Tuition and Fees with Supplemental Professional Fee w/o Living Exp. (Instate) $39,000-43,000
Tuition and Fees w/ Supplemental Fee w/o Living Exp. (Non-Residents) $51,000-55,000</p>
<p>By privatization, I meant the costs to a CA resident, are approaching private m-school costs. Eventually, the m-schools may disassociate themselves from the UC’s as Anderson School has done from UCLA. There’s a professional-school fee supplement of ~ $20,000. This is an act of privatization, to reduce the state subsidy, an act of privatization.</p>
<p>In-state tuition as a percentage of oos is 76-78%. So CA is subsidizing only ~ 22-24% of instate students’ medical degrees (with assumptions of price of attending for instaters equaling subsidy, which doesn’t affect the % calculation, at least by much). </p>
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<li>Per your quote about UCSF following,</li>
</ol>
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<p>UCSF Med is indeed a national school. By this, I mean that there are students from around the country and globe that attend the u for med school and point their goals towards it. It’s more national & global than UCLA m, which is national & global itself. It’s therefore a global school even above it being a national one.</p>
<p>Again, you seem to try to muddle things by how you post to try to throw off any of the things you stated that were flat-out wrong. Please answer the questions, if you would, in a 1-5 numbered format and I’ll see if there needs to be a response on my part following yours.</p>
<p>"". I knew an engineering student who had to take an ungodly amount of credits to graduate in spring and attend m-school after the summer (or during late summer).""</p>
<p>I don’t just “know” such a med student, I am the mother of such a med student. My son majored in Chemical Engineering, graduated in four years, and headed right to med school.</p>
<p>I am not going to argue back and forth with you. the advice I am giving this OOS premed is sound. He’s instate for NJ and has a TCNJ acceptance. If he truly has the chops to go to med school, and if he stays on track and does well as an undergrad, his best chances for acceptance during his first cycle will come from going to TCNJ.</p>
<p>Maybe you don’t realize how time-consuming, expensive, and stressful ONE med school app cycle is. To lessen the chances of having to do a do-over is priceless.</p>
<p>To me, it’d make little sense for the new jersey resident to pay tons of money to attend college in CA and then be shut out from CA med schools and having to return to New Jersey. The only reason I’d see is if Op’s parents are very wealthy and OP wants to discover another part of the country, although OP could have applied to private schools like Oxy in order to get a scholarship if that had been the goal. UC’s are great but they don’t make sense for a new jersey resident who will need to pay 55k, unless Op’s parents have 220k in a college fund.</p>
<p>While it is true that being OOS requires lots of money, OP is being sold a very rosy picture of TCNJ. TCNJ has been trying to market itself as “high quality education” and “small class sizes”. When we were considering our son’s instate choices, by sheer accident we discovered some information from a student who goes there and it is quite different from the information their admisssion office is putting out. It is simply not true that you will end up in a class of 20 students as they claim! When I asked them to clarify, they finally admitted that classes can have 50 students. I also found out that the many of their professors are high school teachers! (Why would you want to go to a medical or engineering program to be taught by a high school teacher?) </p>
<p>I’m not discounting that you know a decent amount about med-school admissions because of your son’s process, and some of your and your son’s experiences would be invaluable to some. But it’s apparent that you probably don’t know a lot about the UC med schools nor for UC undergrads’ experiences in being admitted to m-school.</p>
<p>UC’'s m’s don’t omit those who are not residents. I thought you might have known something about someone who is a non-resident UC undergrad applying to UC’s m’s, but this appears not to be the case. These students might have a different fee structure – I would hope though that UC would offer them instate rates for having attended UC undergrad at an oos cost to save ~ $12K/year, but UC’s m’s will certainly not omit them from the application process. And I’m still not sure about your saying that a typical oos resident to UC’s need to apply to m’s east of Wisconsin, or wherever you stated and meant. Again, though, I don’t doubt that your knowledge and experience is valuable to some.</p>
<p>Again, my post to you was to counter your misinformation. I don’t doubt, though, that the OP possibly should attend TCNJ, and this is probably sound advice.</p>
<p>Regarding your third paragraph, about your stating that it’s “time-consuming, expensive, and stressful,” to proceed through an m’s admit cycle, I don’t doubt this. It’s not a question of a “do-over,” however. I would think the majority of applicants to med school wait out at least the first cycle; that is, most do not enter m-school in the year they graduate from their undergrad u’s. </p>
<p>If you notice Yale’s l-school placement of its undergrads, you’ll notice that it includes “alumni.” The (prior-year’s) alumni will increase the acceptance rate of all included in this database, because they will have prepped better, and organized their applications to l-school better, generally, than those who applied during their senior years.</p>
<p>In addition, some who defer enrolling in l-school, and certainly to m-school, in this instance, need a cooling off period after something stressful as four years of competitive college and perusal. For m-school, some want to find a job in a lab, to gain some income, as well as ordering their m-school applications. So to blanket the idea that it’s important to enter m-school immediately upon graduation … doesn’t apply to everyone, and probably to most. </p>
<p>One thing I made mistake from the beginning was not telling you that I am an international student who lived in NJ few years. So, I am always an OOS student. At this point, I don’t think I can say which is better, but I can say which I think is better fit for me. If I were to say which institute has the better science program, I would definitely choose UCSD. But I chose TCNJ to attend for the following reason:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Out Of State tuition and expense fee for TCNJ were cheaper. It was more of family choice.</p></li>
<li><p>Smaller class.
“Science classes need to have a certain pace to them.” This is the point why I think the size of class matters. It is fundamental law for teachers to be considerable on students and make sure that his/her students are following up. I think easy contact with professor is important too.</p></li>
<li><p>More connections and old friends at NJ.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>It is true UCSD has well-known science program and indeed, more known institute than TCNJ.</p>
<p>Thank you for your replies. It helped and I learned a lot!!</p>