Teacher Recommendations...

Parents Forum
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<p>"OK, the reason you sign the box is so that the teacher FEELS NO PRESSURE to show you the letter and can write candidly. </p>

<p>Once the letter has been written, the teacher is free to do what he/she wants with it."</p>

<p>EXactly, this has always been my understanding. You are saying that you will not have any right to see the letter before or after the teacher sends it, so that the teacher can and will right freely. If, after it's written, the teacher would like to show it to you, s/he can. That's their choice. </p>

<p>Neither of my kids were shown them, but if they had been, I don't see where there would have been aproblem. It would not have changed the waiving of the right, or the freedom of the teacher to write freely.</p>

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<p>I disagree. If you read the waiver language (like a lawyer--after all, it was probably written by a lawyer), you can see that the waiver only directly covers your access to your recommendation once it is part of your permanent file at the university (that is, once you have matriculated). By signing the waiver, you are not saying that you haven't seen your recommendation before your teacher sent it off. You are saying that you won't ask XYZ University to show it to you once you are a student.</p>

<p>If your teacher wants to let you read the recommendation, he or she may, and you won't have a reason to ask the university to show the letter to you later--the waiver is moot. If your teacher doesn't let you read the letter and you get accepted at the university, if you signed the waiver, you cannot get access to the recommendation. If you are rejected by the university, the university is not required to let you see the recommendations unless required by state law.</p>

<p>Here's the text of the waiver (Stanford application for 2004 class):</p>

<p>Family Education Rights and Privacy Act of 1974. This form is to be used as a reference for admission purposes. As currently interpreted by the Department of Education, the Act provides that applicants who subsequently enroll have a right to inspect and review the evaluation if it is retained by the University, unless that right is waived in writing. Sign your name below only if you wish to waive your right of access.</p>

<p>I request that this reference form be sent to Stanford with the understanding that it will be used for admission purposes. I understand that I may not read this reference and agree that I will not seek to do so, either while I am enrolled at Stanford or subsequently.</p>

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<p>Regardless of the legality, I think that schools where teachers routinely show kids the letters, or where guidance counselors encourage teachers to share the letters with the kids, are going to foster ever-increasing skepticism on the part of the Adcoms. If a teacher offered to share a letter with my kid I would have strongly, strongly encouraged my child to say no. It interferes with the integrity of the process which is already flawed... in schools with 14 Valedictorians, you've now got recommendation- inflation in addition to grade inflation?</p>

<p>Teacher's are human; parents of students sit on Boards of Education in some towns, or are part of sub-committees on curriculum assessment and hiring/firing review boards, etc. Once you've got a quid pro quo going on sharing recommendations there's no end in sight.</p>

<p>My kids (private) school informs parents that although they cannot mandate that everyone sign the waiver, no student nor parent will be privy to the contents of a recommendation from the school. Period, end of message. You want to review the transcript for factual errors before it goes out? Come on down. A teacher's integrity should not be compromised by having the contents made public... even if only to an audience of one. If the chem teacher routinely shares, how does that make the physics teacher feel????</p>

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<p>I don't see how showing a letter to students hurts the integrity of a school. When I taught college, I used to routinely show students the recommendation letters that I wrote for them. A big reason was that I wanted to make sure the letters were accurate and included all information that was relevant and helpful.</p>

<p>I also was comfortable showing students my recommendation letters because in general, I only wrote such letters for students whom I could give a strong recommendation to. When students whom I didn't think well of asked for letters, I'd gently suggest that they ask a professor who had seen better examples of their work.</p>

<p>I'd write letters for weaker students only after explaining to them what I could say about them. If what I could say was that although the student was a "C" student, the student had demonstrated high ethics and a strong work ethic, I would write that after talking to the student about what I would say. I also would show that letter to the student.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with Blossom.
I 've taken part in hiring decisions at my children's schools for practically every level not exlcuing principal and superintendent. Several people who applied to some of these jobs happened to have taught my kids at one point or another. I was mightily glad that I had not read what they wrote about my S. I could evaluate them for that job with a clear conscience that I was not letting personal feelings intrude. </p>

<p>And I've written my share of recs. Usually only people confident that I would write a good rec approached me, but in one or two cases I did say that I did not think my rec would be strong enough. They got the hint. In fact, the letters that are required by colleges are often called "evaluation" not "recommendation." </p>

<p>Teachers have to feel comfortable that what they write will stay confidential. Blossom wrote about the pressure on all teachers to divulge the contents of an eval if some of the teachers do so. I shudder at the thought that some students will brag that "Teacher XYZ wrote that I was the best student s/he had taught in the last umpteen years." How will that make students feel about getting an eval from same Teacher XYZ who merely wrote that such and such student was "brilliant"?</p>

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<p>Northstarmom: * It's also considerate to tell teachers immediately when you get scholarships, admissions from an institution that the teachers wrote you a recommendation for. Even if you will be applying to more places, it is a considerate thing to do. I used to be hurt when I'd hear about students' successes secondhand and weeks later after I had taken lots of time and thought writing them recommendation letters. *</p>

<p>Uh-oh, this kind of makes me squirm. </p>

<p>Last year, daughter was applying to 7 schools, including a safety. </p>

<p>In September, when she was getting organized for sending out forms to the people she was asking for recs, the safety's website said that they didn't require any recs or essay. So she only sent out 6 forms/envelopes to her recommenders.</p>

<p>Some weeks later, she looked at the safety's website again--they'd updated with a new admissions policy and now they required one recommendation and an essay.</p>

<p>So she scrambled to figure out which one of her essays could most easily be recycled.</p>

<p>The rec situation was trickier.</p>

<p>She really didn't want to bother her original recommenders again, especially since they were travelling and out of town at the time--in fact one was out of the country. Time was growing short.</p>

<p>So I suggested another person she could ask for a recommendation for her safety school. In fact, I thought this person would make a particularly good choice for the safety, since the safety was a state school and this person was a community college professor whose institution had strong ties to the safety.</p>

<p>She hadn't gotten to know my daughter as well as her other recommenders had. My daughter had done very well in her class, but it wasn't an area of particular passion or interest. Still it seemed very likely that her rec would be quite strong enough to work at the safety.</p>

<p>So...she did ask this prof for a rec for the safety, and she graciously agreed. </p>

<p>The safety was the first school to reply with an acceptance, and my daughter promptly wrote to thank the prof again for writing the recommendation and to tell her the positive outcome of that application. </p>

<p>She did mention in her letter that she was very happy to have the acceptance, but that she wasn't sure she would go there as she also had applications elsewhere.</p>

<p>The prof wrote back congratulating my daughter and offered to send recs anyplace else she wanted. Daughter demurred vaguely but expressed appreciation for the offer.</p>

<p>It seemed awkward at the time--there didn't seem to be any gracious way to say, "Actually, I had already asked some other people to write those recommendations and I don't need any more, thanks."</p>

<p>And, in the end, daughter did wind up choosing to attend a different school from the safety. </p>

<p>I still feel a bit awkward about this. </p>

<p>I wish there would have been a way for the nice cc professor who took the trouble to write a letter to feel that she had contributed in some way to my daughter's acceptance at her actual final choice.</p>

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<p>Homeschoolmom,
I don't see any reason for you to squirm. The cc prof was happy to help your D, and simply offered additional assistance if it was needed. If your D had no need of that assistance, there was no reason to feel bad about not asking for more favors from that professor. Please believe me, professors and teachers have plenty of recommendation letters to write, and if a student can do well with letters written by someone else, that's perfectly fine: It means the profs/teachers have more time to do truly fun things.</p>

<p>Whether or not I wrote recommendations for them, I was always happy when my favorite students got nice opportunities. I didn't obsess over whether I was asked to write their recommendations. I have never heard of any professors or teachers being insulted that students didn't ask them to write recommendations.</p>

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<p>The discussion about waiving rights to access recommendations is quite interesting. People are making many assumptions about the 'required confidentiality' of these reports. </p>

<p>Personally, if I were an adcom, I don't see how knowing that an applicant saw their recommendation would make their application/recommendation any less weak. Afterall, it's not as if they changed it. The content is the same whether the student saw the content or not.</p>

<p>Also of note is the situation in other schools: Some schools cannot afford the cost of making copies of the evaluations for all the applications students need send (6+ colleges), so they have students make their own copies of the recs, and even mail and pay for it on their own -they are far too busy to sit and mail out applications for individual students. </p>

<p>I've also heard of schools where teachers handwrite the letters and students have to type them out on their own, then the school verifies everything is correct, and signs/stamps.</p>

<p>Either way, the student gets to see the recommendation. And either way, there is no law or legal restriction on this (as ellemenope so accurately conveyed). For many poor schools, this is the only way to fulfil the requirements for individual applicants: time is limited, students are many, and funds are short.</p>

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<p>carolyn, the original post was awesome.</p>

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<p>(Haven't read the rest of the thread, apologies if redundant)</p>

<p>Why would one give a teacher a list (even a detailed one) of one's ECs? Wouldn't it seem just a tad manufactured for a teacher of a specific subject to write about a student's contributions in areas the teacher obviously has no firsthand experience in? I can see the value of saying, "Despite X's commitment and involvement in various activities, X has still kept on top of the workload..." but I would be wary of any teacher mentioning activities he was not directly involved with and only knows about from said list. I would even avoid the above statement, the ECs will show up on a separate list, the teacher should focus on the student's performance in class (or other activities observed) and either the admissions officer or the guidance counselor's report should compare that performance with the ECs.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why would one give a teacher a list (even a detailed one) of one's ECs? Wouldn't it seem just a tad manufactured for a teacher of a specific subject to write about a student's contributions in areas the teacher obviously has no firsthand experience in?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My daughter participated in theatre, choir, extensive volunteer activites, art show, sports... I barely can keep on top of all that she did, how can I expect the teacher to keep track, especially when they may have 150 kids each day?
They may not speak to anything that they don't have first hand knowledge of, but it does help jog their memory and give them a fuller picture.
I only saw one recommendation, but while the teacher spoke to work in class, he was also able to give a sense of who she was outside of class, and it is possible that having a brief resume to consult helped with that.</p>

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<p>But exactly - your daughter can list those ECs on the application and in her essays, or her guidance counselor can mention her extensive participation - so why should her teacher mention them? If her teacher didn't have a sense of who she was outside of class through his own involvement with her, it still seems manufactured to copy down a list of what activities she was in. I can understand a casual, "Hey, what was the name of that play I saw you in?" or "Just to make sure, are you still in choir?" if the teacher did go to her performances, saw her artwork, watched her games, etc. and needs clarification, but beyond that I fail to see the value of it.</p>

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<p>Hello i am new here, this thread seems helpful but i am still in a dilemma. I will be applying for Maths undergrad to a couple of unis on the Common Application, which has this topic something like: 'Describe the person who has influenced you & how...'. I was wondering if i could write on a Guitar virtuoso; Steve Vai. He's revolutionized my Guitar playing technique, i think i have adopted some, if not all of his style. His guitar is his voice, and what he does on it is precisely want he wants it to do. Other than the musical influence i appreciate things like these:</p>

<p>Vai helps the unpriveliged who cant learn music, thru his non-profit organistion , i do the same at school, help students with maths/mechanics prolems. </p>

<p>Vais brilliance at playing with the worlds TOP guitarists each year at the G3 tour, is influential in a way that i dont indulge myself in negative competition, i am compelled to reach one aim the and i tend work with others collectively.</p>

<p>......I have a bag full of points like these, but is this wise?, i dont even know if i am on the right track, the GD cant seem to help either....so please shed some light, give me ideas on how to approach this particular topic.</p>

<p>-Choting</p>

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<p>"But exactly - your daughter can list those ECs on the application and in her essays, or her guidance counselor can mention her extensive participation - so why should her teacher mention them? If her teacher didn't have a sense of who she was outside of class through his own involvement with her, it still seems manufactured to copy down a list of what activities she was in. "</p>

<p>I agree. It also seems just like a waste of space. If the teacher knows what the student did because of attending the students' recitals or advising an organization the student was in, then it would be appropriate and helpful for the teacher to mention that info. Otherwise, the teacher should concentrate on the student's performance in the teacher's classroom. The exception would be if, for instance, the student did an excellent job of keeping up with the teacher's assignments assignments despite out of town commitments due to ECs.</p>

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<p>I plan on applying to Lewis and Clark and from what I know, they only require 1 teacher rec, plus a counselor one. I'm pretty sure I want my French teacher to write the recommendation because I do pretty well in the class, I feel he knows me fairly well, and I contributed to the "fight" to keep our French III/IV class that was supposed be taken out this year.</p>

<p>The thing is, I would also like my AP chem teacher to write a recommendation as well. I may have gotten a C in the class first semester, but I believe she'll acknowlege all the hard work our class put in, spending 2 class periods a day, plus 5-6 hrs. of our Friday afternoons every week in her classroom, finishing labs and whatnot. At the first half of the school year, I really felt I had no chance of passing the AP test, but I actually ended up with a good score, making all her screaming at me worth it.</p>

<p>So my question is, will they think I can't follow directions and mind if I send in an extra teacher rec?</p>

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<p>to screw over a student like that is retarded. to get a good recommendation, tell them what you want to put and read over it. and make sure it's good.</p>

<p>i am not a parent, but that is my comment on the first poster's teacher.</p>