Test Optional Admission Data

Applying to College
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If I understand correctly, the theory is that students have an “ivy or bust” mentality, so if students can’t get in to an Ivy-level highly selective college, they instead choose to not attend any college? And test optional a key driver to that because test optional encourages more students to apply to Ivies, so there will be more Ivy-rejects who choose to not attend any college at all?

I expect this is extremely uncommon. Have you ever heard of any Ivy reject choosing to not attend any college at all due to an Ivy or nothing belief (not the same thing as being forced to take a gap year due to financial/family/medical/… issues)? Or have you ever seen any publication or report suggesting this is regularly occurring?

I don’t doubt that community college enrollment is notably down this year, as are the sum total number of applications from lower income students across all colleges . However, this does not mean that it has anything to do with Ivy rejects choosing to not attend college.

The reasons why in some years more or fewer students choose to attend community college are complex are multifaceted and often have strong dependence on external conditions. For example, if in a particular year a larger portion of families are struggling or there are a larger portion of good jobs that do not require a college degree, then a larger portion of students may choose to work after HS rather than pursue college. This relates to why the total number of students attending college is highly variable over time, with no clear correlation to number of Ivy applicants in that year or number of test optional colleges in that year.

Some example stats on 2-year college enrollment are at Recent high school completers and their enrollment in college, by sex and level of institution: 1960 through 2019 . Can you pick out the years with the largest increase in Ivy applications and/or largest increase in number of test optional colleges by the 2-year college enrollment changes? This most commonly cited primary reason for the large decrease in community college enrollment this year is effects of COVID (financial, jobs, medical, uncertainty, …)

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The headwinds facing lower-tier private universities started well before selective schools adopted TO as a response to the pandemic: demographic trends, for one thing, and price sensitivity in the aftermath of the 2008 recession.

In fact, as a segment of the market, prior to the pandemic these types of schools were much more likely than the most selective tier to have already preemptively offered TO admissions as a way to make themselves more accessible. Seems pretty far-fetched to think TO is what will cause some of them to go under.

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Let’s look at this theory using an analogy.

The problem with the disappearance of the (local mom and pop retail store) is irrefutable. Fact!

Could it be because Walmart and Amazon have convinced society to believe in a “Walmart/Amazon or bust mentality” and reinforced that view by only allowing 5% of the people that want to shop with them access to their products. In reality, I don’t think so.

To the student/parent applying to an Ivy, higher education is viewed as an imperative. Students don’t take their MIT rejection letters and go off to trade school. Instead they choose to attend a match or safety school, get a great education, go on to successful careers and in some rare cases publicly bemoan an unfair admissions process.

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The test optional data may not be telling the whole story. We know of many students who applied to BAMA, Auburn and other schools down in our region because it was not only test optional, but also free. This program was also available in other states. We know students who applied to several schools they were not really interested in, and told us that they applied because it was easy and free.

There were many students who applied to schools last year not only because it was test optional, but because it was free. Perhaps, one can find data on this?

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226

Here is some more info….from the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/08/04/satact-scores-college-admissions-diversity/

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227

I don’t get peoples’ faith in the college board corporations standardized tests and how when presented with valid arguments and information, they will twist and squirm any which way to defend their faith. What other corporation in America has such a grip on peoples’ minds not to mention on a vital component of the economy?

Pepsi? Walmart? I’m really trying to think here and I can’t find one.

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California is still very iffy on getting a seat for a test. Also, they are still canceling them left and right. We decided it wasn’t worth it for my daughter to be taking 10 college units, high school classes, college applications, and dancing 20 plus hours a week to stress out studying again for an exam that might not take place.

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I don’t get peoples’ faith in grades provided by high schools that have every incentive to inflate the grades of their students, especially their top students. Take away the only form of benchmarking for those schools against other schools, and the prep schools and wealthy suburban schools will be handing out A’s like candy on Halloween.

There are a lot of studies showing the massive grade inflation at preps and wealthy suburbs over the last 20 years, and now some people want to pull the last guardrails away and turn college admissions into a closed club favoring the wealthy and connected.

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I agree - that’s where rank comes in - but of course less and less are ranking now.

I had a 2.8 in HS and i was 40%.

Today, 40th percent is probably - I don’t know - a 4.

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231

Yep. And there is a big difference between course offerings at wealthy/private schools compared to other high schools as well as advising on what courses a student should take. Not to mention the differences between the types of letters that guidance counselors are able to write (and the fact that some AO have “relationships” with guidance counselors and a “history” of accepting kids from certain schools).

Standardized tests are a great way for kids from average/below average high schools to at least make it through the first screening.

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We’ve had two tests cancel two days before the test. I actually think HS class of 22 had minimal opportunities to take either test. At least where we are from…

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Funny enough I am the OP. Obviously this is anecdotal and a study of one but after so much test prep and multiple cancelled tests and then completed tests D22 got into her top choice school in a competitive program without submitting any scores. So I’m more convinced that TO is legitimate.

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234

I haven’t read this entire thread, and the Search function is…ummm…not optimal, so apologies if this was already posted.

I saw MIT’s Class of 2025 data for the first time yesterday.

1,365 admitted of 33,240 - 4.1%

In the SAT breakdown, 1,104 of 14,279 were admitted - 7.7%
In the ACT breakdown, 597 of 7,892 were admitted - 7.6%

This means that of the 18,961 that didn’t provide an SAT score, 261 were admitted. That’s 1.38%

Best case I can come up with - every accepted ACT student also submitted the SAT, and every rejected ACT student did not submit an SAT. So subtract 7,295 from the number of applicants, but none from the admitted. That’s a best case of 2.24%

Worst case, SAT and ACT acceptances add up to more than the total number, so the test optional admissions could be be 0.0%

I suspect the number is in the middle, giving test-submitting students a 7.7% acceptance rate and test-optional about a 1.4% rate.

Obviously the student profiles are different, so this doesn’t mean the same student submitting or not submitting makes a 5x difference. But the data was interesting.

Other interpretations/corrections to my back-of-the-envelope numbers are welcome.

(Then again, the Early Action number of applicants and Regular Decision number applicants don’t add up to the total number of applicants. And the Domestic plus International number of applicants add to a third number, so who knows. )

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Those numbers are interesting but atypical. Unlike at many schools, MIT applicants are strongly encouraged to submit the scores if they can. Here are the current requirements:

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Yeah, we’re in California and my D22 had her SAT canceled 3 times, each within a few weeks of the test. The weird thing is her friends who’d signed up at different sites (all within the same metro area) didn’t have theirs canceled. She studied for the first scheduled exam, but hasn’t really studied since except for a couple of practice tests and is instead focusing on her classes. (She’s taking Econ and likes to remind me about opportunity costs :wink:)

237

My kid was scheduled in Aug 2020 in LA County- obv it was cancelled. Then there was a Sept 2020 test in Riverside County which was cancelled the day before. Then we went to San Diego County and he finally took it in Oct 2020. I find it odd that places in CA are still having issues. I think my kid’s friends wanted to take this past Sept 21 Test date and it was cancelled. So ridiculous!

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Congrats to your daughter! Glad the eventual outcome was so good!

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The numbers would indicate roughly 50% applying TO. Is this atypically low? I haven’t been following the data.

I hadn’t read the footnotes before.

our research shows that considering performance on the SAT/ACT substantially improves our ability to predict subsequent student success at MIT. When we have SAT/ACT scores for a student, we can more confidently assess their preparation;

kinda screams “we had to offer TO, but you really, really, really should send scores.

Interesting that MIT is saying test scores improve their ability to predict success, even though many here loudly proclaim that they don’t (even though the data say they do).

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My kiddo is going to go TO this year. He asked his GC if he should re-take the SAT (or try the ACT) and she said not to bother. In her view, it won’t hurt his application. That being said, while he is applying to some good schools where admissions are competitive, he won’t be applying to any top 25 schools so her advice was based on that. My personal sense is that for schools like MIT you are better off submitting a score.

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Not sure where you get the 50% number. Looks like it could be as low as 1/3, depending on how MIT sorts its SAT and ACT breakdown. Regardless, I wasn’t referring to the number of TO submissions but rather to MIT’s strong preference for test scores.

I agree, which is why I don’t think it is indicative of other schools where TO is more truly an option. If a school is strongly encouraging applicants to send scores, then it seems like it would be worth listening to the school.

Cal Tech seems to believe otherwise, and many other schools seem to agree with Cal Tech, at least in part. In the context of helping applicants understand the process, wouldn’t it make more sense to try to understand the way things are, rather than arguing for what you think it ought to be?