<p>It’s not just our high school that requires it, apparently it’s our state. <a href=“Financial Literacy | Ohio Department of Education”>http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Academic-Content-Standards/Financial-Literacy</a> Might be a common core thing?</p>
<p>I think a major problem with math instruction has been the spiral form (that isn’t the correct term, but it is descriptive) of curriculum, where topics are touched on, supposedly each time a bit more in depth, each year. Thus something basic like division or percentages is covered a little bit each year for several years, but never for a long enough time each year to ensure kids have any real understanding. And it doesn’t seem to matter, because the topic will be addressed again next year. The buck keeps getting passed along. And a kid who didn’t understand it this year is passed along in the hopes that he’ll “get it” when it is touched on again next year. </p>
<p>If the foundations are not solid, the house will never be solid.</p>
<p>It isn’t that algebra 2 and calc are not appropriate in high school, it is that too many kids do not have a solid foundation to be really ready to tackle them. Some are, but many are not. </p>
<p>And I find it distasteful when “mathy” people poo-poo the basics that we all really do need to understand. Most students need direct instruction in the basics. Saying things like “all you need is basic multiplication, addition, subtraction and division to figure it out” is just plain snarky. </p>
<p>All you need to know is the alphabet and basic phonics, too. That’s all you really need to be able to understand contract law or Shakespeare, right? (insert eyerolling emoji here.)</p>
<p>Snarky?
Hmm, what kind of math do you need to figure out the answer to interest problem, balance a check book or gas cost to drive to Omaha … ?</p>
<p>Compare that to reading Shakespeare with knowledge of the alphabet and basic phonics ? rolling eyes !</p>
<p>“But wouldn’t the prerequisite for such a course be algebra 2, since that is the course that includes coverage of exponential functions, which are necessary to understand interest calculations?”</p>
<p>It’s quite possible to “teach” practical math in a way which doesn’t require students to actually understand exponential functions or compound interest. Our school considers solving actual equations for calculating interest to be “too hard”. The students aren’t expected to have a mathematical or intuitive understanding of such problems. They are required only to put numbers into an online “black box” tool and the answer is calculated for them.</p>
<p>I tutor math and teach Algebra I. (The book I use “spirals” its topics, and I think this is a good thing because students never forget how to do something they learned. Otherwise they would learn something for the test on that lesson/chapter and forget it because it would never come up again. They have to keep doing all types of problems as they go through the year. . .) How I wish kids knew basic math. When I was in elementary school we drilled until we memorized the facts. A lot of kids can’t do any mental arithmetic, don’t know their times tables. They can’t tell if an answer “makes sense” (way too high, way too low. . .) I would like to see schools requiring things like personal finance/bookkeeping/accounting/consumer or household math rather than trying to push so many kids toward calculus. When I was in high school, we had a basic math class for freshman who weren’t ready for Algebra. There is no point in starting Algebra in 7th, 8th, or even 9th grade if a kid doesn’t have fractions, decimals, long division, etc. down. Algebra requires a level of abstract thinking that is new and difficult for a lot of kids. It is more important for everyone to learn about household budgets, credit cards, student loans, auto financing, mortgages, taxes, banking, insurance, investing, etc. A person can be a whiz at calculus, and be “handicapped” in life if he/she doesn’t know how these things work (I’m thinking of H 
)</p>
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<p>Someone with no mathematical or intuitive understanding of how something works will not be able to notice if “the answer does not look reasonable” (perhaps the black box is incorrect, or the input numbers were entered incorrectly, or someone is trying to fool someone else into accepting a worse loan deal that s/he should accept).</p>
<p>@ucb, I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m just telling you what you are likely to get when you teach a practical math class at a level which kids have to pass to get a high school diploma.</p>
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<p>If you substitute “college” for “HS” in that sentence, I would agree with you.</p>
<p>But having a high school diploma has become a minimum requirement for success as an adult in this country. Even the least academic among us are expected to graduate from high school.</p>
<p>Given this, why require a course that students who do not go on to college do not really need, and that some of them may not be able to pass, even with lots of help? </p>
<p>Of course college-bound students are going to take Algebra II whether or not it’s required for graduation. They need it for college admission. But I think serious consideration should be given to figuring out what students who are not going on to college really need as part of their high school curriculum.</p>
<p>Marion, that was part of the reason for the dropping of Algebra II as a requirement. There was a feeling that not every kid needs Algebra II. It was also part of a much larger push back against a highly complex and regulated state system of accountability. High school kids went from taking a few basic tests to show they knew what high school educated people should know, to taking numerous state sanctioned end of course exams that were factored into their final grades. There was a complicated system for making up the exams and for retaking them to make a higher grade. Sophomores who just wanted a higher grade could be retaking tests they took as freshmen. The whole program just got so large and detailed and unwieldy that parents pushed back. Parents wanted more teacher control and discretion.</p>
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I agree with this
I disagree with this.
The logic here is bad. Not every kid needs Algebra 2 does not equal dropping it for ALL kids.</p>
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“Por que no los dos?” (Why not both?)</p>
<p>And you’re right. English class shouldn’t be taught that way. </p>
<p>Perhaps for the non-college-prep students in high school, algebra 2 as it is currently specified for college-prep students may not be required, but certain concepts would still have to be taught, at least at an overview intuitive level, to make a “practical mathematics” alternative course useful. For example, discussion about interest would require the concept of exponential functions. Such an alternative course need not go into as much depth as courses for college-prep students, but need to cover the concepts enough so that students have a reasonable conceptual understanding of what is behind the calculation of interest and other “practical mathematics” concepts may be taught.</p>
<p>Whether high schools would actually teach such courses that way is another question entirely.</p>
<p>^I’m not entirely convinced that’s true. I like to relate that when I was in grade 9 algebra we learned how to find square roots of numbers by hand using some odd algorithm that I’ve never seen since. Now we have calculators and I’d wager no one teaches the odd algorithm aside from possibly a fan of mathematical oddities. We are still relatively new to the advances of technology that make it unnecessary to learn certain things. It will take time and effort to sort out what is really important to grasp and what is not.</p>
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<p>The logic here is bad. Not every kid needs Algebra 2 does not equal dropping it for ALL kids. In other words, it’s still available to ALL kids but it’s not REQUIRED. Most kids will still take it. </p>
<p>^^^The system in Texas was getting more and more rigid and complicated. For example, kids were being pushed into the so called 4 x 4 plan, in which they took four English classes, four Math classes, four Social Studies, and four Science classes in high school. Sounds great for the college bound who would be doing that anyway. Sounds like an incentive for kids who could be college bound with a little push. But it wasn’t for everyone. Not just the non college bound, but sometimes even the college bound who also wanted to take four years of a sport of an art class. Texas reached a peak of regulation in testing and graduation requirements and now is swinging to a looser system. </p>
<p>I’m all for relaxing the curriculum to allow tailoring for each child’s specific needs. Both of my kids graduated from TX schools under the 4X4 curriculum. My kids were at an arts magnet and it was impossible for them to graduate without taking summer school. For them, the specialized arts classes (music and theater) were more important than an extra year of math/science. But they still had to take them. I think the same issues are in place for kids who want vocational training. There really is not a good one size fits all curriculum.</p>
<p>Maybe I’m not getting something here, but what you mentioned in Texas is only 16 credits of required coursework. Are there a lot of other required courses? Our non-college bound kids have 18 credits of specifically prescribed coursework to complete (but only 13 in those core areas you mentioned).</p>
<p>The college-bound kids have 23 specific credit requirements (including 16 in those core areas, just like Texas), but out of 32 classes, there is a reasonable opportunity to pursue electives. Not as much as I’d like, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable.</p>
<p>Yes, there is much more: PE, Speech, Health, Fine Arts, and used to be Computer Science. To qualify for the college bound diploma, students also need several years of a foreign language. Some of the classes on the list have grown or contracted in number of semesters required over the years.</p>
<p>Something to consider when thinking about the math that a student should take is the logic that it teaches. I may not remember much of the specifics from my Alg. 2 class, though I do remember learning to logically figure out a problem. How does one learn logic if one does not take a class that teaches it?</p>
<p>Alg. 2 and other upper level math classes are just one of a number of ways to learn logic. A computer programming class teaches it, as well as some philosophy classes.</p>
<p>I remember being all upset when I was working on transferring from my community college to my LAC. I found out that my LAC required a calculus class to earn a BA. I had never had calc., trig, or pre-calc. It had been 4 years since I had taken Alg. 2, my last math class. I just knew I wasn’t going to be able to transfer to (or graduate from) my dream LAC because I knew I wouldn’t be able to pass the calc requirement.</p>
<p>My dad, a high school upper level math teacher and HS principal, knew that the LAC didn’t care if I knew calc as a non-math major. They cared if I had critical thinking skills. He helped me to read the fine print of the schools handbook. And, guess what? A computer science BASIC programming class waived the calc requirement. I had already taken one at my community college. It transferred and I was good to go.</p>
<p>A high school needs to present society with graduates who can think and come to logical conclusions. Alg. 2 is one way to fulfill that, though there are other ways, too.</p>
<p>I look at Algebra’s purpose differently. In elementary school students through tools like flashcards are taught to memorize. 2 plus 6 equals what (X)? 7 minus 4 equals what(X)? In Algebra teachers/books start by changing the position of the answer (what?) so that instead of the answer being at the end of the problem as read from left to right or top to bottom, the algebraic problem now reads 2 plus what(X) equals 8. Algebra then asks the student not to spit out the previously flashcard learned answer, but to demonstrate their ability to THINK in order to solve the problem. Teachers do this by giving students a set of tools/rules (e.g., what you do to one side of the equation you have to do to the other side, etc) and then try to get the students to apply the tools/rules to solve the problem. Algebra then moves along introducing new tool/rules and increasingly difficult problems all the time trying to get students to develop their abilities to look at problems, use what’s available, and use their ability to THINK to solve problems.</p>
<p>In life the ability to think and solve problems is used every day in all areas of life. Let’s say its 4PM a stay at home parent has a problem (i.e., family of 4 expecting a hot dinner at 6PM). The parent has tools (pots, pans, oven, food, recipe, etc). If the parent uses the tools available and follows the rules (teaspoon of salt, bake at 350, etc), dinner gets served at 6PM. Similarly a surgeon is facing a patient with pain in the lower right abdomen and concludes he needs his appendix removed. The surgeon now uses the tools available, (OR, anesthesia, scalpel, etc), he/her can follow the rules (the surgical procedure) and the patient recovers.</p>
<p>To my knowledge what separates humans from the rest is in part our ability to THINK. It’s an ability that needs to be nurtured and developed in everyone, not just college bound students. Algebra is an effective way do it. The biggest problem that I see with Algebra is that every new set of tools/rules builds on previous material. And unless this problem is dealt with and rectified on a regular basis, students will fall behind and lose interest. This problem doesn’t change my opinion of Algebra’s importance. </p>