Interesting discussion about the need for college algebra outside of STEM. I guess I don’t see the benefit for certain majors like Nursing, but I would think that most students would take it, whether it is required or not.
Nurses calculating the correct dosage of medicines for patients may be one reason the math requirement is needed. My wife had to do this with IV drips to ensure the correct dosage of medicine was given to the patient.
Algebra is used everyday. It’s always good to have some math knowledge even basic like algebra.
The article appears to be about “intermediate algebra” (= high school algebra 2), not “college algebra” (= high school precalculus, but not necessarily including trigonometry).
In California, community colleges require “intermediate algebra” for associates degrees, and state universities typically require one course higher than “intermediate algebra” (i.e. something like “college algebra”, precalculus, or non-calculus-based statistics) for bachelor’s degrees.
Note that high school algebra 2 is the minimum math expectation for frosh entering the state universities, although not all frosh pass math placement tests and have to go back to remedial math (“intermediate algebra” or lower).
Sue me, but I think there’s no such thing as college algebra. It’s an embarrassment to this country that we have such a concept. And I sure want nurses caring for me who can do high school math. If I’m a university, I want my communications majors to be able to do it, too.
@ucbalumnus
The article calls it Intermediate algebra in on place and college level algebra in another. I read it as algebra II, not pre-Calc.
I understand how people feel about the requirement, I would expect it for my own kids, but if it is a huge barrier in some students, I really don’t think it would be the end of the world to allow an associates degree with one less math class. Maybe I have gone too soft.
1 Like
Well, for starters, the article talks about waiving the requirement for non-STEM majors-- so your nurse wouldn’t qualify. And it doesn’t talk about dropping math as a requirement, merely broadening the scope of math courses that would qualify.
There are some kids who simply cannot see the logic in algebra. I’ve taught kids with consistently high averages in other classes who simply did not get algebra. If they’re going to major in something that doesn’t use it, then perhaps those credits might be better applied to the type of math they WILL need-- say, statistics.
“One size fits all” rarely fits anyone well. I think the idea is worth at least considering.
I think you need some math just to be able to read a newspaper, or blog, as a thinking person who will be voting some day.
But, if we’re going to do this for math, how about getting rid of equally “unnecessary” requirements, like foreign language? 
The article wasn’t talking about getting rid of a math requirement, it spoke of an algebra requirement.
Why is algebra more valid than Statistics? Or geometry?
So the comparison might mean enabling someone to take German or Italian instead of Spanish to take care of that Foreign Language requirement.
I think this comes down to “what does an Associates or Bachelor’s degree signify?”. In other countries, the equivalent of a Bachelor’s degree may only take 3 years. In the US, it takes an additional year, as we expect folks to achieve a general knowledge (foundation) in a variety of subjects (including math), before they focus on a specific field of study.
If we don’t need the math requirement, why the Social Sciences, Humanities, and Composition requirements? Does a Journalism major need to take (non-calc) physics? Or an engineering major the history of ancient Rome?
Algebra seems like a reasonable class. Perhaps it doesn’t need as much “pre-calc”, but it needs to be hard enough to mean something.
I’m not in favor of getting rid of math requirements, but I think it’s worth noting that there are at most two countries in the world – and likely only one – where it even remotely makes sense to talk about a foreign language requirement as unnecessary. In much of the world, the ability to function at a high level in more than one language is often an essential differentiator between people who are successful and people who aren’t. Because most of us are lucky enough to be raised speaking the lingua franca of world commerce and science, we uniquely have the option of being monolingual, but in some ways I think that stunts our brain development and distorts our view of the world.
However, “intermediate algebra” or high school algebra 2 is usually listed as a prerequisite for introductory non-calculus-based statistics or high school AP statistics.
Actually, there are a few colleges like Evergreen State (in WA, not CA) that do not have any such requirements to earn a BA degree. Among more selective colleges, Brown and Amherst are well known examples, although a student who cannot pass “intermediate algebra” or high school algebra 2 is unlikely to be admitted there.
On the other hand, the CSUs apparently take the opposite viewpoint on general education requirements, given that they require a considerable number of courses in various areas: http://web2.assist.org/web-assist/help/help-csu_ge.html .
From the article: “Chancellor Eloy Ortiz Oakley, who heads the nation’s largest community college system of 114 campuses, told The Times that intermediate algebra is seen as a major barrier for students of color, preventing too many from completing degrees. About three-fourths of those who transfer to four-year universities are non-STEM majors, he said, who should be able to demonstrate quantitative reasoning skills by taking statistics or other math courses more applicable to their fields”
He apparently thinks it’s doable-- that there are college math courses that can be passed without a college algebra course. Please note: I’m not saying “MATH”-- the article is saying “ALGEBRA.” And I’m not too quick to disagree.
@JHS, you will surely have noticed that I put quotes around “unnecessary.” I mostly agree with you, but I have one child who has never been able to get better than a B in FL, and that only because the final is written. While he’s fulfilled a requirement, I don’t think he will do anything more than find out where the WC is, or order in the language from a waiter who would really rather practice his English. I’m not a native English speaker myself, and most of my extended family speaks many languages, but I understand that the skill is not universal.
The child I’m referring to does math easily, but has struggled with FL, repeatedly. It’s of interest to me because I think ASL should be an acceptable replacement for a spoken language (and some schools do this), and perhaps a FL equivalent of “math in nature” (e.g., Fibonacci in sunflower spirals) would be good (e.g., “how to order food in 10 languages”).
Fwiw, in my previous life when working, I was often astounded at how innumerate most people were, even college graduates. Years and years ago, I TAed a Stat for Psych Students in grad school; is there an eye roll emoji?
I think that requiring a math class is appropriate, but i don’t see the need for algebra specifically. Statistics& basic probability would be a much more useful class (and it could weave in some algebra related concepts if need be). The math and logic found in computer programming, whether Python or Scratch, is also a valid test of logic and quantitative reasoning skills. Truth be told, if I had to pick ONE mathematical concept all students should master, it would be proportionality, and you wouldn’t believe how many don’t. Algebra is important intellectually but should people who can handle another type of math and not that one be prevented from graduating or even advancing to their major (which typically has nothing to do with it?)
This fetish on algebra is odd, it reminds me of the debate about Latin v. modern languages one hundred years ago. There isn’t one “proper” branch of math v. diluted/improper knowledge that is somewhat inferior. Algebra doesn’t show anything superior to statistics. It may be a cultural signal but to whom and what for?
Most importantly I know many students who are stuck taking intermediate algebra again and again till they run out of Stafford/Pell and never complete their degree. My reaction has never been “well I’m glad, I would not have wanted them to graduate if they can’t do intermediate algebra” but rather “what a stupid waste”.
Btw, students attending a 4-year colleges can satisfy their math requirement with " math for citizenship" or “art and geometry”… Why isn’t that option available to cc students?
A college degree represents not just job skills but an education. Minimal standards in math and English for ALL graduates should be there. California needs to not reduce its standards but educate its students better so they can achieve the goals. That said, it could change standards for an AA degree but that would not make those students who do not meet present requirements eligible for a four year degree. Eliminating standards based on one’s major makes a nonSTEM degree less valuable, lending more credence to beliefs that those majors are worth less.
Ixnay…- getting a B in any class means learning a significant amount. Not being able to do well on written exams does indicate that a subject will not be one’s future career. I disagree with allowing ASL to substitute for spoken languages. The regular languages help one understand the nuances of our own language which ASL cannot.
I wasn’t clear; he only eked out a B because there was a written exam. He has a tin ear for language, but a good enough memory and grasp of grammar to do well on a written exam.
We can agree to disagree on ASL. Imo, It has a number of advantages over a second spoken language, among them training a different part of the brain (both as “speaker” and “hearer”) and having the chance to be useful, in daily life, in a way that badly spoken French probably won’t.
I am a huge fan of requiring statistics, both for supporting a social science major and for citizenship. But I don’t know what kind of watered-down BS statistics class you could teach to people without intermediate algebra. Functions and equations are essential to basic statistics.
Inadequate preparation is a primary and high school problem, not a college problem, and colleges can’t fix it. Much love and sympathy to the community college folks who are working hard to try to help these kids. It looks like a losing battle to me when the foundation isn’t there and the kids have concluded that they are “bad at math” as a result.
“There are some kids who simply cannot see the logic in algebra. I’ve taught kids with consistently high averages in other classes who simply did not get algebra.”
I don’t question your direct experience, but I do question the conclusion that the problem is simply innate in such kids. In Japan, virtually the entire population shows competency with this material in middle school. I don’t believe they are genetically smarter than our kids, so the environment must be leading to this success. Rock solid primary school math is the foundation.
Agree. California community colleges list algebra is a prerequisite for introductory statistics. For example:
Laney College Math 13 (introductory statistics) requires Math 203 or 211D (intermediate algebra): http://laney.edu/mathematics/courses/catalog-descriptions/
Santa Monica College Math 54 (introductory statistics) requires Math 18, 20, 49, or 50, all of which have algebra content needed for statistics: https://www.smc.edu/AcademicPrograms/Mathematics/Documents/Math-Chart.pdf
Mission College Math 10 (elementary statistics) requires Math C or CM (intermediate algebra): http://missioncollege.org/catalog/course_descriptions/math_course_descriptions.pdf
So the question of “why not statistics instead of algebra?” is answered by “you need algebra to learn statistics”.