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<p>Because geometry has many applications not only in daily life, but in many well-paid highly skilled trades for those who aren’t inclined or otherwise want a college education. </p>
<p>I’m not sure it’s true anymore that algebra1 in 9th grade is considered normal math pacing. Our high school doesn’t even offer honors-level algebra1. Algebra1 is considered part of the middle school curriculum for honors students. I’m wondering what fraction of middle schools offer algebra1 and what fraction of students are completing algebra1 in middle school. And what fraction of kids intending to attend a 4-year college complete algebra1 in middle school. It may not be the norm for every student, but in our school it is definitely the norm for college-bound students.</p>
<p>OK, I had to look this up. “According to the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), the number of students taking Algebra I in eighth grade more than doubled between 1986 and 2011, from 16 to 34 percent.”</p>
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<p>A carpenter or other skilled tradesperson is likely to find geometry (and perhaps trigonometry) useful.</p>
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<p>They likely assume that honors math students are mostly those who are a year ahead (i.e. have taken algebra 1 in 8th grade). Those entering high school not having completed algebra 1 are typically “regular” math students, not honors ones.</p>
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<p>Considering that a majority of entering college frosh who take math take calculus 1 or a remedial math course, the norm in your high school (algebra 1 in 8th grade or earlier, leading to completing calculus by 12th grade) is not the norm in general.</p>
<p>sylvan8978, when topics related to “the Metric of the Earth” are properly presented, they provide a view of absolute truths that direct the cognator towards the actual nature of the universe. For instance - separate from arbitrary standards of degree measures - the investigation of relations of space describes that rotation of a facing through four quarters, within a defined plane, returns the facing to the initial position; this is an absolute truth observed in driving a car or in subatomic motion. If geo/metry is something that is indoctrinated in a perfunctory way, much like in the manner of the Glencoe textbooks, there is no revelation involved - usually drudgery. When any of these “math courses” are presented for what they really are, they describe why it is that certain physical things occur in the way that they do, or why the mind works in the way that it does.</p>
<p>Maybe it’s not a matter of doing away with Geometry or “Algebra II”, but more in doing away with the horrific ways in which they are taught; that is, in a way that is parochial, dictatorial, and, oftentimes, punitive. </p>
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<p>Even my STEM-centered public magnet high school offered the equivalent of Algebra 1 for students who weren’t accelerated. However, the numbers of incoming classmates who needed it was so small my school only devoted one class for Algebra one whereas they devoted at least 3 for second year and higher-level mathematics. </p>
<p>Even though their equivalent of Algebra 1 was accelerated compared to the same course at many neighborhood high schools, students who didn’t take Algebra 1 in middle school were regarded as “being on the slow track” by most classmates and even some teachers. </p>
<p>“Considering that a majority of entering college frosh who take math take calculus 1 or a remedial math course, the norm in your high school (algebra 1 in 8th grade or earlier, leading to completing calculus by 12th grade) is not the norm in general.” That’s not an appropriate measure. Many kids who took algebra1 in middle school will take calculus in college. Perhaps they struggled in a later course. Perhaps they took other math, like statistics, instead of racing to calculus. Perhaps they didn’t pass the AP exam, or simply elected to repeat calculus. Maybe they (gasp) elected to take a humanities course instead of calculus in high school. Somewhere on this site, I saw a post saying that at some elite LAC, 27/28 of the students enrolled in calculus were repeating. And of course perhaps they simply attend a high school with a messed up math program like ours, where the kids who take algebra in 8th grade are not on track to take any calculus in high school. </p>
<p>Lol at the posters defending Geometry here. Tradespersons can learn what they need in their trade courses or apprenticeships. Geometry is not a necessary course any more than Algebra II is, potential usefulness aside. Unless you are going to argue that Algebra II has no use to ANYONE.</p>
<p>What do you consider to be necessary courses for high school graduation? The arguments made against various parts of math can be made against much of English, history, science, and art as well.</p>
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<p>In many skilled trades, those trade courses/apprenticeships BUILD UPON basic academic courses offered in middle and high school. And incidentally, I took some such courses as they were offered alongside the academic courses…though they were exceedingly basic. </p>
<p>This mentality of watering down a basic high school curriculum has gotten to the point that some skilled union trades like electrician now sometimes require a semester or two of community college before apprenticeship training because too many local students are coming in so woefully unprepared in basic courses which were assumed to be covered in high school. Courses like algebra, geometry, and for electricians…physics. </p>
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<p>Agreed though a bit understated. Credentials like a HS diploma were created partially as a means to certify its holder has passed a minimal standard of basic academic skills which allow for college level entry, entry into skilled trade apprenticeships, or for some types of semi-skilled/unskilled employment. </p>
<p>If the diploma is watered down to the point one doesn’t need to demonstrate such skills to a reasonable standard required by colleges, apprenticeship administrators, and employers, then it does becomes little more than a meaningless “participation trophy” as a previous commenter has noted. </p>
<p>What is the history of the algebra2 requirement? Was it required decades ago, or is this some kind of new experiment? And if it has been a longstanding requirement, isn’t it reasonable to expect today’s high school graduates to be at least as well educated as the previous generation? Maybe we should think instead about offering some kind of AA-equivalent for high school age students, which would require only the equivalent of two years of coursework. Perhaps some employers would feel that’s good enough, and it might help the kids who just hate school to get working faster.</p>
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<p>This conversation baffles me a bit as my state(NY) required a minimum of 3 years of mathematics with a mix of algebra, geometry, and trigonometry being the absolute bare minimum. Over here…especially among parents of students aspiring to respectable colleges, they’d look upon someone asking to drop algebra 2 as if someone wanted to drop basic writing or one of the 3 required lab sciences from the Regents curriculum. </p>
<p>And I know of someone who was from a state which allowed her get away with graduating HS without passing algebra I. She struggled to pass it in college as it was a core requirement. I know as I was tutoring her. Did I mention she was an elementary education major and was hoping to be a K-6 teacher? </p>
<p>Thank goodness she ended up not pursuing elementary teaching after graduating. From her lack of mathematical acumen, she wouldn’t have been effective in teaching K-6 math concepts to her students considering she had serious issues applying them in college courses and daily life…and more importantly, she didn’t care. </p>
<p>I think we are confusing requirements for high school graduation with requrements for college admission. They are not necessarily the same thing. Maryland State Department of Education requires three years of math to award a high school diploma: Algebra 1, geometry and another math class. The University of Maryland requires Algebra I and 2 and Geometry, and strongly urges a fourth year of high school math for admittance. Most kids who are on a college track in high achool therefore take four years of math, including Algebra 2, but it isn’t required to simply graduate from a Maryland public high school.</p>
<p>“strongly urges” isn’t the same as requires. Clearly they are trying to leave the door open for all their high school graduates. Although being the state flagship, they probably aren’t going to take many of the weaker students. There must be other state schools with a lower standard.</p>
<p>Geometry is nice because it’s usually the class that introduces the idea of a mathematical proof, though it seems like proofs appear less and less in Geometry classes. And at least for me, the necessity of proofs was more clear in my Geometry class than either of my Algebra classes, and this is from a person who enjoys Algebra more. The two-column proofs might not be so great, but I think they’re better than no proofs.</p>
<p>Quote from eastcoascrazy:
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<p>Yes. They are two different things, and we need to remember that not all high school graduates will go on to college.</p>
<p>@lizardly
This is the description of the graduation requirements in my Oklahoma district (minimum graduation requirements; college-bound is more rigorous):
3 Mathematics: Limited to Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry,Trigonometry/ Precalculus, Math analysis, Calculus, AP Statistics, or any math course with content and/or rigor above Algebra I and approved for college admission. Students who enter ninth grade with high school math credits must earn at least three additional math credits during grades 9-12 to fulfill this requirement.</p>
<p>Okay, this is based on my reading the local paper, but I think the Algebra II graduation requirement is fairly new, not decades old, and Texas was the first to require it. We didn’t have it when I was a kid in the Olden Days. Now Texas is rethinking that idea. </p>
<p>I will note that Algebra II was NOT required for all Texas diplomas, but according to the paper, only 20% of Texas grads chose the minimum diploma. That is a lot of Algebra II. (The claim has been made here in Texas that many kids dropped out rather than fulfill the more rigorous requirements. I don’t know if that is true or not. I don’t know why the potential drop outs weren’t steered to the minimum diploma.)</p>
<p>Also, I will reiterate that the changes in Texas are not just about Algebra II. Last spring the legislature passed a law changing and (mostly) simplifying the testing and graduation requirements for the state. The Algebra II change is part of a big shift in how the state views testing.</p>
<p>I mean no offense to Texas or Texans, but why is Texas the state to which others look for academic/textbook standards? I know the major textbook companies are based in Texas, but why is that? Is it just the basic tax incentives offered by all states to large companies? This is a puzzler to me. I don’t think any one state should be the official or unofficial “benchmark” state for public education.</p>
<p>Is it strictly based on state population?</p>
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<p>Not sure about that part as there have been states which required algebra II or its equivalent as part of their state’s HS graduation requirements…especially for those hoping to go off to college or well-paid high skilled trades. </p>
<p>I do know for a fact that the GED didn’t have such a requirement back in the '90s from tutoring others for it. Then again, it also means that employers…including the US military look upon the GED with much more skepticism regarding the “trainability” of new employees/enlisted soldiers. </p>