The $100,000 Question: Public or Private U

Parents Forum
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<p>
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Interestingly, my daughter doesn't seem too concerned when I point out that at Carolina, "you might have big lecture classes with TA's for a lot of your classes."

[/quote]
To me this is the most important difference between a LAC and smaller private and the big publics. I don't know if your daughter has the full picture yet, or appreciates the implications. In HS she is in a class of maybe 30 or so kids and the teacher is right there and knows her by name, grades her tests, and so on. In the large public she will be in many classes with 75 or more students (300+ in many intro courses), and a TA will be grading her papers. This is literally just a face in the crowd.</p>

<p>And with all due respect to her HS teacher in AP history, my guess is she/he is not the equivalent of a tenured professor at a leading university. College offers the opportunity to study with the top scholars in the field, and while she may not have many questions for her HS teacher it is my hope that she will want to engage her profs in at least some of her classes.</p>

<p>To be sure, some people are comfortable with the lecture format and one-way delivery of larger classes, and it may be that your daughter is among them. However my observation, and that I have heard from other people who attended large U's, is that we didn't realize when applying to college what the difference between the large U and a more personal educational experience would be. If it could be done over, I think many who went to the large U would choose smaller classes; I've seen this time and again in postings by parents who are doing the college visits and reflect on the difference between their experience and what they see offered at other colleges.</p>

<p>One suggestion would be for your daughter to spend a day at UNC and attend some of the lecture classes. Just pick up a schedule of classes and it will list what rooms they are in. Given the 200+ students in them, nobody will know she doesn't belong in the class. Then let her reflect on whether this is what she wants in college, especially the 1st 2 years.</p>

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<p>Then spend a Friday night hanging out on Franklin Street, a Saturday afternoon at a UNC football game, and maybe you'll have a more complete picture of big school vs small school life. Now Duke has basketball which does separate it from Emory but it also requires camping out to get student tickets. TA's are not the devil--most are very bright and accomplished in their own right. They can add much to the class and provide that one to one help if you need it.</p>

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<p>On the issue of large classes vs. small:</p>

<p>That is something that may be very well an indication of your daughter's personality and preferred learning style. For my son, small classes were very important - and the reason he chose a private LAC over the state university -- in fact, he didn't even bother applying to any private colleges EXCEPT LAC's, because the small classes were the only really important factor to him.</p>

<p>But I honestly have to say that when I was in college - at a UC campus -- I liked many of my large lecture classes. I also liked small classes - and I had those -- but I think I liked a balance with only one or two small classes, and the others being a larger lecture format. Many of the most dynamic and well known professors taught large lectures -- word got around quickly and students signed up in droves. While not all classes were like that -- some were downright boring -- I also enjoyed the anonymity of the larger classes, and the fact that I did not always have to go to class. I realize that seems bad, but I know now that my personal learning style means that I do best reading and exploring independently; during lectures and class discussions, my mind tends to wander. Larger classes gave me the option of doing the reading and written assignments, without the added burden of being bored and distracted while sitting in a class that did nothing for me. I've never been much good at taking notes, either --- I simply would come out of a lecture hall with a notebook filled with doodling. </p>

<p>There really is nothing wrong with a large class if the student is comfortable with that format. These days, larger universities also have video available for many of the large lecture classes -- you can actually get the benefit of the lecture without ever going to class. I know that you don't want to hear that one advantage of UNC may be that your daughter can get away with skipping class -- what parent wants to hear that??? -- but the fact is that many students do very well in that context.</p>

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<p>Concerning the large lecture classes, DD had many classes of over 200 at UVA. When I asked her if that was a problem she said no, that all the profs have mandatory office hours and love when students come to see them. She also appreciated having a TA once a week because the TA often had a different way of explaining things, giving 2 perspectives. If we were middle class NC residents it would be very hard to justify an extra 100K to go to Duke or Emory. I know someone who turned down Duke for UVA (in state) & someone who turned down Cornell engineering for Virgina Tech (full scholarship). You are very lucky to have an in state option like UNC :) Save the money for grad school...or retirement.</p>

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<p>Wow. I had no idea I would get so many good responses to THE DILEMMA. Of course, it will only be a dilemma if the daughter actually gets accepted to Duke and Emory, and if either or both of them seem like a strong option at that time. At this point, my daughter doesn't have her heart set on either one, and will be very happy to go to UNC. The social aspect of that choice, going in-state with lots of people from our city, county, region...there's definitely something to be said for that. Hey, and if 81% of the students at UNC are in-state, then I've got that much chance that any future husband will be from the area!</p>

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<p>Hello EmoryUNCDuke parent!!! Waving to a neighbor! As a fellow NC resident with a bunch of high school and college kids, I have seen and lived your quandry! Oldest DD is at NC State in a major they don't have at Carolina, and DS#1 is at an LAC in MN for the the small class size, the football team (he plays) and the large scholarship! I think both would have been happy at Carolina. My DD#2 did not apply to Carolina either has they didn't have her major (arch) and she is/was being recruited for her sport elsewhere. DS#2 (11th grader) will be applying to Carolina and Duke. So we will be where you are soon enough.</p>

<p>DS#2 had an internship this summer at Duke and enjoyed the campus very much. And DD#2 practices at Carolina everyday, and she and he both like the campus as well. NC state on the other hand is more of a zoo. But DD#1 loves her zoo! She is also pre-vet so her classes at the vet school would not be occuring if she were at Carolina or Duke.</p>

<p>My point to all this is, depending on what your DD wants to study might play a large role in where she wants to go to school. And how she wants to study, Duke as some sort of core where as Carolina has a lot more freedon for GE classes and within the major itself. Where are all her friends going? Or where are her closest friends going? Does she play a sport?</p>

<p>But if it were me, and it might be in 1 short year, I would not be able to justify to myself, my son or my other kiddos the $100,000 difference. I just don't see the value especially between Carolina and Duke as an in-state resident. Carolina is $4241 per year with room and board somewhere in the $6-$7K range and that's if she lives on campus. My oldest DD lives at home since we live so close to campus and has been really enjoying it, surprise, surprise. Then again we all enjoy the football and basketball games and all the fun things to do on all the campuses.</p>

<p>If there will be no aid or scholarships coming from Duke paying full fare is going to be an OUCH!!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>As a current freshman, I've had 4 small classes, and 4 lecture classes.</p>

<p>The larger classes are nice, because you go knowing that you won't randomly be called out to answer something you don't know, and can daydream slightly if you choose to do so. The smaller classes are nice in that you can get to know the professor more, and have more interaction with the other students in the class. Also, I don't think you're going to find many (any?) schools where the micro/macro, intro psych classes, etc, are small. Maybe they have 70 kids, but there's really not much difference between a 70 person class and a 300 person class. Most likely, the professor won't know you in either one, so you must make the effort to appear during office hours. However, my math class 1st semester that was small, the professor didn't know anyone's name. It was run just like a lecture, though there were only about 30 kids there. Alternatively, in my intro Psych class with 300 kids (largest room on campus) this semester, the professor asks questions throughout the class, and calls on people throughout the room to answer them. I'm actually very impressed with her ability to do that.</p>

<p>As a student, taking into consideration financial issues, I would go to UNC. You could never convince me that Duke is worth the extra money (or any private school, including Ivies, is worth the money over a top state school). But that's just my opinion of course. I, living in VA, never seriously looked out of state.</p>

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<p>Someone I know rejected an Emory Scholar postion (full scholarship) to pay full freight at Princeton (parents did not qualify for aid but were not wealthy either). The (parents) thought was although they would save much in the short term, their child would be carrying the Princeton stamp for the rest of their life, and that over the long term, the payout or benefits in having attended P, would be much greater. Parent and child were in agreement.
Applying this logic to your situation, would Duke, over the long term justify the cost? But if money is a significant concern, then it must become a significant part of the equation.</p>

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<p>I like the idea (as mentioned here) of listing the pros and cons, which include the financial factor. </p>

<p>Your D seems to have a good attitude about large schools. While the value of being at a small school with lots of handholding is obvious, that isn't necessarily going to help anyone in life. I've always worked for large corporations with over 40,000 employees. It took me many years in corporate America to learn the "visibility" game - how to be more than a face in the crowd. I wonder if kids in large school gain a leg up in learning how to be more visible and work their way through the crowd. Though students may gripe about the large school feeling, it isn't necessarily a bad lesson for them to learn. </p>

<p>You can't really go wrong with any of those three - they're all wonderful schools! Congrats to your D on the UNC acceptance!!! She's in good shape :)</p>

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<p>We had a similar situation last year, most folks face some version of this question, we ended up paying the money for Pomona. Duke was the only rejection my S recieved but if he had not gotten into Pomona and had been accepted at Duke, we would have gone for it. My S got into Emory with No money at all, Pomona had given a very small amount. He would have picked his state honors program, free tuition plus more over Emory in a heart beat but due to his fit and needs. Carolina is a great school. Many out of staters pay good bucks to go there over schools you listed. You have great choices and could not make a wrong decision, it is just what is right for you. Let me know what you decide.</p>

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<p>I probably have a very different take on the situation. I think UNC is terribly overated (sorry all of you fans). I am always shocked when I read how highly it is rated. I know many, many UNC undergrads and grads and I can't say any of them have been impressed with their classes or most of the faculty. There are many TA's who are teaching for the first time, and have very little supervision or direction. No one is going to encourage you to become involved extracurricularly--it is totally up to you and many kids seem to do very little. A shy kid can totally get lost there. Yes, there is diversity as the kids come from all over the state (and many from very inadequate high schools which don't prepare them well at all). That is not to say there aren't many bright, high achievers. But I live in state and basically told my child I did not want her to go there. I am certain that this is very rare, but so be it.</p>

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<p>Wornoutmom,
Do you then think this is the case then at U.Michigan also, which is a highly ranked school, but does take in-staters with far lower scores than oos. Is UNC just a hard school to get into for oos, but the in-staters use it as a sfaety?
I somehow cannot buy that.</p>

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<p>You would be hard pressed to justify the $100000 based on academics alone unless Duke/Emory gets the kid into a grad school (with high income potential) and UNC could not. That's unlikely.....</p>

<p>Regarding class size with some effort even at a big state u you can shrink it down.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
momsdream writes: It took me many years in corporate America to learn the "visibility" game - how to be more than a face in the crowd. I wonder if kids in large school gain a leg up in learning how to be more visible and work their way through the crowd.

[/quote]
So much depends on the kid, and I think most parents on this forum would be in agreement about this. For the self-motivated student who knows what she/he wants and goes out and gets it, a large school is no impediment and they may indeed gain the skills momsdream describes.</p>

<p>On the other hand, far too many kids fall into the rut described perfectly by wornoutmom, when she writes "No one is going to encourage you to become involved extracurricularly--it is totally up to you and many kids seem to do very little." Far too many kids go off to college either not informed about what they should be doing in college or just not ready to strike it on their own. If you come from a high-achieving family or an affluent area, you have been exposed to the steps you need to take -- get to know the profs, get involved in ECs, get internships, and so on. But many kids either know this stuff but just aren't ready for one reason or another to do it without encouragement, or just plain don't know it and think that getting that degree is all it takes to prepare for the future. For these kids the personal attention of a smaller college can make all the difference.</p>

<p>Some kids come out of the large college experience witth the smarts and advantages mentioned by momsdream. But I've seen plenty that put in 4 years and emerge with just the degree; these kids, I always think, would have been better off elsewhere.</p>

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<p>S at a very small uni, and the amount of opportunities is amazing. From first term, mets with professor at his house to play computer games, invites to join research projects, newspapers, and anyone can join sports or music groups.
I think some kids can find their way at large U, but woud be harder</p>

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<p>Choco: for many people at my high school, including me, Carolina is both a safety and a match. If you have a good class rank, high SAT scores, and some sort of ECs, Carolina is almost a sure thing (65%ish acceptance rate for EA in-staters, IIRC0). However, it is usually the top choice of these students as well, so they don't bother applying to many other schools. </p>

<p>Wornoutmom: your problem seems to be that you just don't like large universities. The things you said (i.e. nobody forces you to do anything, shy kids can get lost), applu to any large college. However, I have to disagree about the teachers. I know quite a few people who go to Carolina, and several who go/went to Duke, and one person who attends Wake, and all groups were generally satisfied with their education. Unfortuantely I can't say the same for State - the people I know who went there for engineering/CS/sciences are happy, but those who are in its liberal arts program have more mixed feelings.</p>

<p>Many people, like myself, can enjoy either environment. I'm applying to Chicago, Cal, Carolina, Wisconsin, Duke, and possibly Harvey Mudd for my matches/reaches - a very diverse group of schools in terms of size and atmosphere. However, they all offer excellent educations, and I could see myself fitting in at any of them. When I visited UNC, most of the junior/seniors had much smaller classes than the freshman, especially in those classes related to their major. Many people simply don't like large classes, and this is understandable. But state universities often get an undeserved bad rep from those who prefer LACs and the like (especially if they were raised in New England, as many of the parents here appear to be, where the state university systems are not as good), simply because they have large classes.</p>

<p>If you are very introverted, a large public university probably isn't for you. The people I know who are happy at Carolina all made efforts to get to know their teachers (who were usually happy to oblige), and generally outgoing as far as social life goes. Virtually all of the complaints about Carolina, and any large U, center around either large classes, "inaccessible professors", or a social life where out-of-staters are shunned. Indeed, many people go to Carolina with their friends, and unless you an outgoing out-of-stater it may be hard to make friends (although it is quite easy if you are willing to meet new people). As for the professors and teachers, unlike an LAC in the large classes they will not approach you personally - you have to take the initiative yourself.</p>

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<p>So, Ohnoes, if you were accepted into all of your schools, what would your criteria then be, for making the final decision?
And, if you got into Chicago, Carolina and Duke only, where would you go?</p>

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<p>Personally I don't think it's worth it at all to go to duke or emory over unc, especially if you're in state. Just doesn't make much sense to me if you don't qualify for any need based aid when the quality of education is so high at unc and the cost is so low.</p>

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<p>I'm applying to Duke ED (huge long shot), so if I got in there obviously I would go. I visited the campus and loved it, however I also loved Carolina. My decision to apply ED to Duke primarily is based on the fact that Duke has a slight edge in its biology programs, and a lot of research is carried out there ; my only caveat is that frat life seems to be bigger at Duke than Carolina, but that isn't a large issue. Carolina also has a great biology program that's only a step behind Duke, though, and I would be happy there as well.. Although I don't mind large classes nearly as much as some people, Duke has a higher % of classes taught by professors and smaller classes overall, so it also gets the edge there. Finally, I just liked Duke's campus a bit more overall - I loved the architecture and overall "feel" to it. I would need quite a bit of need-based aid to go to Duke, but based on EFC calculations and the aid they offered to a rather well-off friend of mine who got accepted ED this year I think I would be fine. </p>

<p>Now, assuming I get rejected from Duke and accepted everywhere else (although I highly doubt I will get in to Berk, and Chicago is a longshot), the decision becomes much harder. My knowledge of Chicago is based off someone I know who goes there (and loves it), and a few people I've talked to over the internet. I would have to visit the campus and experience it for myself if I got accepted there as well as Carolina, although I'm leaning towards Chicago at this point. The fact that it's in a bigger city is also a plus, as I've never really had the chance to spend time in a city larger than Charlotte, and I prefer a more urban environment. This isn't a huge problem, though, as Chapel Hill/Raleigh/Durham are rather nice cities in their own right (I'm just sick of my small town). Chicago is famous for its academic rigor, which I have no problem with and would enjoy. The only concern I have with Chicago is that some people say the social life is lacking, but for the most part they all say it is what you make of it - and with downtown Chicago 8 miles away, there will always be something to do. </p>

<p>Wisconsin and Berkeley are different cases. I've never visted either, and only know one person who attended Berkeley. I'm applying to both because of their strong biology/molecular biology programs, and because I've heard great things about both schools. If I got in to every school except Duke, Chicago would probably where I would go (the person I know got a generous need-based aid package from them, so I probably would as well). I would likely end up choosing Carolina over Wisconsin (which I am applying to because Carolina's admissions can be a tad random sometimes, and Wisconsin is more stats-based), unless UW gave me an aid package to bring down the cost to Carolina-level, in which case I would visit it and see how I like it. Berkeley, even if I do get in, would depend on how much need-based aid I am given, which isn't likely to be much since I am OOS. However, if they offer a lot of aid, I will visit it as well.</p>

<p>To sum it up, my order of preference right now, if I get all my aid met, goes like this:
Duke - Chicago
Carolina - Berk - Wisconsin (would have to visit)
(huge gap) NC State - my safety</p>

<p>But assuming that the other public Us don't offer much in the way of aid:
Duke - Chicago
Carolina
Berk - Wisconsin
NC State</p>

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<p>ohnoes--you are exactly right--the large university is a tough place for an introvert and I know many of them. I am a) from the midwest, not the NE and grew up in a working class town b) went to two very large universities for undergrad and grad school. But this was a long time ago, and our expectations were much lower.We were just happy to be in college. I had never known anyone who went to a LAC until I began my search for my own child. It was eye-opening for me.
My bias comes from working at UNC and talking to many, many students about their disappointment in the school. But for a go-getter, most schools will be just fine. And Chapel Hill is indeed a lovely town.
Chocoholic--in response to your question re:in state vs. out of state--no, many NC kids absolutely have UNC as their first choice. It is the premier public university and many of these kids have been raised on TarHell basketball and come from alumni families. The school has an aura for them, and I'm sure for some it lives up to the reputation. As costs for private schools have gone up, public is the only option for most famililes, so UNC is our best state school
Re: U of M--I can't say--my entire family of origin went there but that was 30 or more years ago. My sister said that being in a residential college made it a better experience. But my info is very outdated.</p>