The 4th Best Business School

Graduate School Business School - MBA
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<p>RML, I don’t think the difference in the rankings really matter that much between Yale and Berkeley. I’ve looked at Yale’s rankings and think they’re all terrific considering the number of schools out there. I will admit though that I would much rather go to Berkeley over Yale for any engineering/science graduate degree. Only because I believe they have better resources and those things really matter. Not because of a ranking. I mean as sakky mentioned earlier, how many people are even aware of these rankings? Not many.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I would like to show you a thread started by British as they discuss the most recognized universities in the world. I only saw Berkeley once.</p>

<p><a href="http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=828177%5B/url%5D">http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=828177</a></p>

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<p>Of course, it has much of a chance to excel and dominate on MBA race just as Berkeley and Yale have. whichever school amongst the three has the better program, and is more effective in implementing the program will move ahead on the race. however, since both MIT and Berkeley are improving too (especially Berkeley), I don’t see Yale overtaking either school now or in the near future. Just look at the facilities that Yale is building. It’s designed to be limited. It means, it doesn’t have plans of expansion. Therefore, the demand has not improved at Yale SOM. Stanford’s soon to open facilities, as an example, are expected to accommodate more students. Berkeley is adding more faculty and professors. It hopes to increase the number of classes as the demand has gone bigger.</p>

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That’s exactly my point. The two schools belong to the same tier in terms of prestige, respect and recognition. It’s just that one is more dominant in certain areas while the other is on another areas. But as a whole, they are both peer schools.
I think what the_prestige is trying to say here is that Yale = Harvard. No it isn’t. There is no school that has equal status with Harvard. Not even Oxford even in most Commonwealth member countries. </p>

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Now, what happens if you would really end up at Berkeley eng’g? would your eng’g degree be any less respected than a Yale eng’g degree simply because one CC member claimed that Yale >>> Berkeley? Does that really make sense? </p>

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which ranking was sakky referring to?
anyway, many grad school students refer to rankings too, but they don’t take the result/placement of the rankings as absolute fact. these ranking league tables would just be useful guides to some students like when they’d like to check on the caliber of the faculty of a particular department, etc.
But the point is, most postgrad applicants are more aware of the caliber of the schools. That is why its’ a bit shocking to me that a self-confessed MBA grad is still not aware of the strengths of some schools other than HYPSM. </p>

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<p>The link you’ve provided is inaccessible. but anyway, how credible are those respondents? are they MBA aspirants or postgrad aspirants? Do these respondents even have a college degree? I bet most college degree holder in the UK would respect a Berkeley degree and would even be thrilled to study in Berkeley for postgrad education.</p>

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<p>Well, that kind of depends what you want to do with that graduate degree. I like Berkeley better just cause it’s located right in Silicon Valley and the relationships they’ve built up with the high tech companies located there. And as I said, Berkeley would have the better resources to conduct research. If people think less of me for choosing Berkeley over Yale, pssh, nothing I can do to change that. It doesn’t make sense, but it is what it is. </p>

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<p>I think he was takling about any ranking they do. Whether it’s US News, FT, The Economist, whatever.</p>

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<p>Why does their credibility matter? Or whether they have a degree or not? I’m only talking average Joe here. Okay, so let’s assume these British posters don’t have a degree. But, they mention Harvard/Oxford as universities they are aware of numerous times while Yale and Cambridge every so often. Only 1 poster mentioned Berkeley, much less Stanford. Some have never heard of MIT, asking what it was. Anyways, with that link I posted, replace those asterisks with, the student room(BTW, no spaces between them). Hope it works this time.</p>

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<p>Try this as a sample – <a href="http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=855769%5B/url%5D">http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=855769</a></p>

<p>Berkeley being pitted against UK’s best university, Cambridge, and yet Berkeley was winning.</p>

<p>I’m not a member of that forum, but if you are, try asking them where do they think they would go between Cambridge and Yale for economics, eng’g, science, somsci or even English lit, history or psychology. let’s see if Yale can hold on its own…just as Berkeley has against Cambridge’s eng’g and even won. (I doubt if Yale would win against Cambridge.) </p>

<p>But then again, I don’t trust the respondents on that forum as they’re mostly undergrad students; only a few of them have grad education. If you want a better and more trustworthy opinion, ask those people in the know or those who have undergrad degrees or university presidents, provosts, deans, faculty, scholars, profs, employers, etc… And, if you think the PA score of USNews is a reliable tool, both Berkeley and Yale were ranked equally with both having a PA score of 4.8. H,M,P all have a 4.9 whislt Caltech has a 4.7. and Columbia? still in the top 10, but it clearly does not have the prestige that Berkeley has.</p>

<p>bottom line, both Berkeley and Yale are very prestigious schools. Anyone who has heard of Yale and respect Yale must have also heard of Berkeley and respect Berkeley. They are both elite names in the academic world and neither is significantly more prestigious than the other. both schools can capitalize on their current program strengths – Berkeley on its world class eng’g, comsci, physical science programs, and Yale on its undergrad and law programs. MIT is as prestigious as the latter two but it’s a very specialized school. Nonetheless, the name is very well respected or top 8 in the world. Caltech can probably do what MIT has done but it would be an uphill battle. As for Columbia, it does not have the prestige and name recognition that Berkeley and Yale have, on a global scale. But it is right next below them. </p>

<p>Elite names in global scale:</p>

<p>Harvard
Oxford
Cambridge, Stanford, Yale, MIT, Berkeley, Caltech</p>

<p>then some random schools which include:</p>

<p>Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Michigan, Cornell, UPenn, the London School of Economics, Northwestern and probably Hopkins</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Dream on Cal fanatic.</p>

<p>Every single Ivy + MIT, Stanford, Caltech are far more prestigious than Cal.</p>

<p>p.s. this is an MBA thread, so let’s keep those engineering, science, math and computer science references to a minimum shall we? plenty of other threads for that.</p>

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<p>the_prestige, </p>

<p>like I said, I am not from Cal and have not attended a program there.</p>

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<p>RML,</p>

<p>who said you went to Cal? Millions of Star Trek fanatics have never been to outer space either.</p>

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<p>What’s interesting about what the OP(assuming he’s an undergrad) said in that thread is that he applied to many US schools and thinking he probably wasn’t going to be accepted in any US unis. However, he had just been admitted to Berkeley. Well, what other schools did he apply to in the U.S.? Did he apply to Stanford? MIT? Harvard? uh oh, Yale? Did he apply to them and get rejected? Wait what?</p>

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<p>Well sure I can agree that if you want to major in engineering you go to Berkeley over Cambridge. But here’s the thing, *what if *you don’t like engineering all of a sudden while you’re there? You would want to go to a university that offers you a strong career flexibility. And brand name is what does that. People are going to judge you by your brand. And I think if you go to Berkeley for undergrad, it’s because you didn’t get into Stanford. In other words, brand name >>> any ranking. IMO, sorry to differ from you, Cambridge brand name >>>>>>>>> Berkeley’s brand name on a global scale. Notice that thread I posted. It sounded like an open-ended question. As I said before, they mostly mention Harvard & Oxford, Cambridge and Yale every so often, while Berkeley and Stanford once. BTW, it was the same poster that mentioned both Berkeley and Stanford. And people later on thought he was a bitter man that got rejected by the Ivies.</p>

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<p>Well I would expect the most knowledgeable scholars to be aware of a school like Berkeley. But by brand recogntion I don’t limit it to just professionals, I’m talking about the general population regardless of age or status. That is why I believe that thread I posted was a great example assuming they didn’t have any graduate degrees. Do you really need to be a professional to know what Coca-Cola is?</p>

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<p>Sorry, I never heard of Berkeley until I was a sophomore(also the age I saw that Full House rerun) in high school looking at college rankings. When I saw Berkeley at #20,(or somewhere around that) that was when I noticed it was a great school. But I had heard of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford since I was in 2nd-3rd grade. And I doubt I’m the only one who thought that at those ages.</p>

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<p>Mine on a global scale:</p>

<p>Harvard
Oxford(though not very far)
Cambridge
Yale
Princeton
Stanford/MIT</p>

<p>And the rest: Berkeley, Caltech, Columbia, Chicago, Duke, Michigan, Cornell, UPenn, and LSE.</p>

<p>That’s just my opinion.</p>

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<p>RML, I have a problem thinking that you actually graduated high school. </p>

<p>And just for the record, I don’t have to disprove you simply because you haven’t proved anything! You are basically talking to yourself, and then reassuring yourself that you are right and made sense.</p>

<p>To me, a Berkeley graduated generally means=Stanford reject. A Yalie doesn’t. </p>

<p>And by the way, where did the current President of The United States of America graduate from college, before attending Harvard Law School? That’s right, Columbia. </p>

<p>Even if I bought your nonsense as to why UC-B topped Columbia, now I can’t ignore that the fact that Columbia recently produced a leading statesman (what Yale has been doing for a while, eg Clinton) puts it in a different league than Berkeley. It significantly increases Columbia’s brand equity and puts it in a different league. Moreover, and quite frankly, I don’t give a flying F’ about how many semiconductor experts graduate from UC-B. And I work in VC…</p>

<p>Your reasoning is flawed.* Please*, spare me. Thanks.</p>

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<p>All of it. </p>

<p>From your post you clearly show that you just don’t get it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and broke the argument down to its very basics. Yet you try to get out of it by saying that “Yale’s brand is not as strong as Harvard” and even then you give no supporting evidence for your claim (and your links do not count as evidence, and your testimony is unreliable and anecdotal at best–frankly very few people in the business world will care about the opinion of an ‘Italian who works in the third world’, this is not the UN). Surely someone who truly went to Cambridge ought to know better. I actually went to Harvard, and while I am not a fan of Yalies per se, I can tell you that as an “university” Yale is pound by pound as good as Harvard. I have profound respect for that institution. I cannot say the same thing about Berkeley. Does Yale produce as many scientist? Probably not. But that’s not even relevant to the discussion. No one is asking who produces better scientist (and if that were our focus, I doubt I can place Berkeley above MIT, Caltech or Stanford…even there UC-B trails other schools). More importantly, UC-B simply does not have the same *pedigree *as Yale. It’s a (very good) public school. And “pedigree” is the key component here, esp. in the business world. One of the few places where Berkeley may enjoy the same perception as Yale (if not the only place), generally speaking, is in Asia, and I am sure you’d realize how the geographic component leads to this equivocation. Other than that, Yale’s brand, pedigree and reputation is MUCH stronger than UC-B.</p>

<p>By the way, where did the last two presidential candidates and eventual US President come from (prior to this election)? Oh, right, Yale. The fact that Bush ended up being not so popular does not change anything here. A Yalie was going to be president of the US. We are talking about the “art of the possible” here, RML, not the art of the microchip, nor its science. </p>

<p>I don’t mean to offend you RML, but I am tempted to say that you do seem like a naive high school kid (perhaps even a freshman or sophomore in college) who is just learning to play with logic and arguments. You clearly focus on the wrong particulars, hoping to hold your ground. Face it, your are on quick sand, shuffling your feet faster and harder won’t help you. Please, do not continue embarrassing yourself.</p>

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<p>i’ve created a monster…sorry to all didn’t want this to turn into a prestige war</p>

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Well, likewise. The feeling is mutual. ;)</p>

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And you just don’t get it either.</p>

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Why not? lol.
When you claimed that your respect for Columbia has risen because an alumnus has just been elected to the presidency, how is that any different from a Berkeley scientist having discovered how to make an Invisibility Cloak or Berkeley having discovered another element or founded a software company and made fortunes? Or from knowing that the Richest person I admire is a Cal alum, etc, etc??? </p>

<p>The problem here is that, you’re creating your own set of prestigious schools and you think everybody thinks exactly like you do. Well I don’t. I think your list is bogus. And I very sure that there are a lot of people out there that don’t share the same view as you have. So, how are we going to reconcile this then? I suggest that we consult the experts. The US News ranking has a compilation of what the experts really think are the most respected schools in the US. Here’s what they think:</p>

<p>US News: Peer Assessment</p>

<p>4.9 - Harvard
4.9 - Princeton
4.9 - MIT
4.8 - UC Berkeley
4.8 - Yale
4.7 - Caltech</p>

<p>Source: [Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college)
Please note that I did not invent that. Again, that’s the voice of some 2000+ college presidents, deans, professors, etc. who are obviously more knowledgeable than both of us. No offense to you, but what makes you think your voice (or opinion) is more credible than those of the more 2,000 school presidents, deans, provosts, profs, etc???</p>

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To you. Yes, to you. But then again, you’re not everyone. </p>

<p>Let me tell you what I think. I think many Yale grads have poor mathematical skills. Yes, that’s what I think. I think Yale is lousy when it comes to engineering and stuff. thus I think Yale is inferior to Berkeley. Now, I’m not saying my opinion about Yale is correct. But like you, every person has his own biases. How will we reconcile that. Again, let’s consult the experts. And what did the experts say? Berkeley and Yale are just as prestigious. Source: [Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college)</p>

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<p>Speaking of prestige on a global scale:</p>

<p>1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
2 Stanford University<br>
3 Harvard University *** </p>

<h2>4 University of California Berkeley </h2>

<p>-</p>

<h2>17 Columbia</h2>

<p>-
39 Yale </p>

<p>Source: [World</a> Universities’ ranking on the Web: Top USA & Canada](<a href=“http://www.webometrics.info/top100_continent.asp?cont=usa_canada]World”>http://www.webometrics.info/top100_continent.asp?cont=usa_canada)</p>

<p>Top 500 World Universities (1-100)
Source: [ARWU2008[/url</a>]</p>

<p>1 Harvard Univ<br>
2 Stanford Univ<br>
3 Univ California - Berkeley<br>
4 Univ Cambridge<br>
5 Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT)<br>
6 California Inst Tech<br>
7 Columbia Univ<br>
8 Princeton Univ<br>
9 Univ Chicago<br>
10 Univ Oxford<br>
11 Yale Univ<br>
12 Cornell Univ</p>

<p>Newsweek’s Top 100 Global Universities

  1. Harvard University
  2. Stanford University
  3. Yale University
  4. California Institute of Technology
  5. University of California at Berkeley
  6. University of Cambridge
  7. Massachusetts Institute Technology
  8. Oxford University
  9. University of California at San Francisco
  10. Columbia University
  11. University of Michigan at Ann Arbor
  12. University of California at Los Angeles
  13. University of Pennsylvania
  14. Duke University
  15. Princeton University</p>

<p>Source: [url=<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_100_Global_Universities]Top”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_100_Global_Universities]Top</a> 100 Global Universities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008_A(EN).htm]ARWU2008[/url”>http://www.arwu.org/rank2008/ARWU2008_A(EN).htm)</p>

<p>What other proof do want see so you would know that Berkeley can certainly hold on its own in the prestige race in terms of global prestige?</p>

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<p>This thread caught my attention because I’m an MBA student at the (maybe?) 4th best business school, a graduate of Berkeley, and it’s almost graduation time.
Wildflower, could you expand on your definition of “pedigree” ?
If I would have known that I would always be perceived as a Stanford reject for the rest of my life because I became a Berkeley engineer, maybe I should have applied to places outside of California! Trouble is, it’s kind of tough to find a school “ranked” as highly as those two in engineering. I think to complete the triumvirate there’s… MIT. So call me a Stanford & MIT reject. And what of ivy league engineers? They didn’t go to the best engineering schools, after all… do you also consider them Stanford rejects?
I’m aware that this discussion is not about engineering, but I think it’s fair to say that plenty of people choose Berkeley because that’s where their interests lie. Other people with less defined interests are better off going somewhere else to have a liberal arts education or the chance to try out some new things in a safe environment.
So why is it that we can have - well I don’t know exactly - but at least 9 universities that bequeath this pedigree you speak of (I’m counting the Ivies, MIT, Stanford) but Berkeley is left holding the bag? I guess it’s all about what the person majors in (or is it?)
I know that VC in general is an elitist profession (all it takes is surfing firm websites!), but are you saying you’re going to write off individuals because they didn’t go to a private school when they were 18?</p>

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<p>Yet another perfectly good thread hijacked and utterly shred to pieces with useless discussions about Cal’s science and math rankings.</p>

<p>Congratulations RML.</p>

<p>This completely irrelevant rhetoric is effectively CC’s equivalent of H1N1 pig virus – no one wants to come in contact with it.</p>

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<p>ah okay - if this happens all the time then either there’s too many cal boosters around here or the admissions standards diminish the “pedigree.” Such is life!</p>

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<p>RML, I’ll correct my previous statement…</p>

<p>You ARE a high school student. </p>

<p>I shall no waste my time with you no longer. Enough said.</p>

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<p>Next time, when you make a claim such as as bold as saying Yale SOM would outrank Berkeley-Haas, Northwestern-Kellogg, MIT-Sloan, Chicago business schools simply because it is Yale, at least be prepared to back it up with solid and verifiable evidences. By doing that, you would at least sound believable. </p>

<p>Wildflower, again, the feeling is mutual. ;)</p>

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<p>As far as I can tell, marketing your brand name is extremely important in climbing these rankings. With this in mind, I’d argue that Yale is in a stronger position.</p>

<p>I think sakky’s point about how both schools had their respective strengths is interesting, but it was unfortunately lost in this debate. </p>

<p>I would argue that Yale’s strength, in this case, is in its ability to appeal to a larger audience with its stellar undergraduate and law program. Hence, this is why Wildflower mentioned “perception is reality” for business, which I don’t necessarily agree with, but there’s something to be said about the statement. What better way to elevate your name brand than to have a few US Presidents graduate from Yale? People identify with undergraduate programs far more than PhD programs. Furthermore, I’d argue that far more people relate to law programs than any PhD program. Law school graduates have more marketable career prospects (ie. US Senator, President, high profile court cases, etc…). </p>

<p>PhDs are a niche field, and they do not appeal to a larger audience; they represent such a small percentage of society. It’s simply not a marketable field because there’s a huge disconnect between academics and the public. Far more people can identify with a US President/VP/cabinet member with a Yale degree than a Physics Nobel Laureate with a Berkeley degree. Therefore, Berkeley’s PhD rankings are not as relevant simply because they are not as marketable. Berkeley doesn’t have the undergraduate pedigree to compete with Yale’s undergraduate pedigree, which is far more important than PhD school rankings in terms of marketability. </p>

<p>I also find it interesting that no one seems to have mentioned Indra Nooyi, an Indian woman. She graduated from Yale SOM, is the current CEO of Pepsi, was named by Forbes as the 3rd most powerful woman in 2008, was listed among TIME’s 100 most influential People in the World, and was listed as one of America’s Best Leaders by the US News and Report. Her accomplishments are nothing short of remarkable given that Pepsi is such an American brand name and her past, and, judging by the posts here, I’m surprised her success hasn’t been marketed by Yale as well as it should be. Wouldn’t her position as CEO of Pepsi be a great way to elevate Yale’s name brand in business schools?</p>