<p>Why are you debating this if you all have your MBA?</p>
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<p>You are missing the point, RML. And I’ll allow myself to think that it’s due to pride (ie, not losing an argument to TP) and not due to ‘just not getting it’. Either way, it doesn’t reflect well on Cambridge… 
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<p>I think what the prestige is arguing can be summed up as follows: </p>
<p>1) Yale is a stronger brand than most schools (UC-Berkeley included);
2) Yale SOM is a) new and b) on the rise;
3) Yale SOM a) hasn’t fully capitalize on the Yale Brand, but b) it’s bound to (recent rankings are evidence);
4) The overarching brand/umbrella of a university (such as Harvard or Yale) is more important than any specialty rankings.
–>Therefore, Yale is bound to continue moving on replacing schools (such as UC-B) that are either stagnant or have reached a plateau and are moving down in the rankings. </p>
<p>That ought to be clear enough for everyone.</p>
<p>In business, I am sure most of you with any experience have heard ‘perception is reality’. And the reality here (no pun intended) is that Yale is bound to be perceived as a stronger school than others, regardless of specialty rankings–frankly, with the exception of RML and Sakky, no one cares how good UC-B is in engineering. And as the current generation leaves the market (namely, those people who saw Yale SOM as “new” or only as “best for nonprofit” or “up and coming”) the perception of the new/incoming generations is likely to revere the Yale brand. Yale knows this, the prestige knows this, even I know this. Heck, even Oxford knows this, which is self-evident as they try to capitalize on Oxford’s reputation to make Said a player–I mean, look at their marketing videos on the MBA website (<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/oxfordsbs):%5B/url%5D”>http://www.youtube.com/oxfordsbs):</a> they feature people such as Bill Clinton, Mandela, etc… none of them got an MBA from Said… but they…</p>
<p>“attended Oxford”…“Oxford…the school that has been training leaders for almost a 1000 years!”… </p>
<p>catchy, isn’t it? That, despite the fact that Oxford is a second tier European school behind powerhouses such as INSEAD and LBS (some would even argue, and probably rightly so, a third tier b-school, behind even IESE, IMD, ESADE, IE…). </p>
<p>(Bill Clinton, funnily enough, “attended Yale”… and Yale SOM hasn’t bothered pointing this out, although perhaps they are just more prudent than Oxford… or by virtue of “being Yale” do not need it…)</p>
<p>Now, I don’t think Yale SOM will replace anyone in the top-3… although I can see it tying with Wharton over the next 5 to 10 years (esp. if finance stays in the pooper…)</p>
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<p>Well, first of all, that’s not really the question on the table that I was attempting to answer. I was simply saying that Haas could remain better than Yale SOM. </p>
<p>But secondly, I think your point is off the mark. Sure, I can agree that Berkeley might not be able to do much on the technical front that MIT or Stanford won’t also be able to do. But the real question is, will MIT or Stanford (or Berkeley) actually do those things? Surely we can all think of numerous examples of schools that could do things but that don’t actually do them - heck, Yale SOM was a prime example of that for many years of its existence. </p>
<p>As a case in point, a few years ago, Stanford killed its integrated MBA/MS-Engineering program, leaving only an ad-hoc dual degree program that you have to stitch together yourself. It is rumored that MIT may kill its integrated program as well. Hence, if Berkeley builds a strong integrated program, Stanford doesn’t follow suit, and MIT kills its, you could then legitimately argue that Berkeley would be able to match - or perhaps even exceed - those other schools. It would certainly be able to exceed Yale on the technical management front.</p>
<p>But thirdly, I don’t think that Haas necessarily has to match MIT or Stanford in order to be considered elite anyway, for those are not the only schools that I consider to be elite. All it has to do is match schools like Columbia, Kellogg, or Chicago, all of which I also consider to be elite. In fact Haas already beats Columbia in the USNews rankings and I think has a decent shot at surpassing or at least matching Chicago. As long as it can do that, then it would deserve the mantle of eliteness. As good as HSW? No, but I think we can all agree that Yale won’t get to that level anytime soon either.</p>
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<p>Well, to use the same logic, I would argue that Berkeley Haas ought to rise in the rankings from a long-term branding strategy, for I would argue that Berkeley has a better brand than, say, Chicago or Northwestern Kellogg. Let’s face it. Outside of academia and certain upper reaches of the professions, nobody has heard of the University of Chicago. Heck, some of my old high school teachers thought it was just a nondescript, lower-tier public school. I would argue that Chicago may have the worst “brand-name-to-academic-excellence ratio” of any of the top schools, perhaps matched only by, frankly, the University of Pennsylvania, which most people think is just an ordinary state school. {Granted, Wharton has brilliantly carved out its own distinctive brand that is separate from the general UPenn rubric.} Similarly, I would suspect that far more people have heard of Berkeley than of Northwestern. Even Columbia I doubt holds a significant branding advantage over Berkeley. </p>
<p>So just as Yale may inevitably rise due to the sheer weight of its brand, so I would argue that Berkeley Haas will do the same - or should. A future version of the elite top 5 B-schools in the country may well be something like HSW, Yale, and Berkeley Haas. </p>
<p>Now, to be clear, do I think that is probable? No. All I am saying is that I think it could happen, and with some nontrivial percentage chance. I don’t see any reason why Chicago, Columbia, or even Kellogg would be able to maintain a perennial lead over Berkeley Haas.</p>
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<p>I disagree. Columbia is far more prestigious than Cal.</p>
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<p>This assumes that Cal leapfrogs over MIT and Columbia which I just don’t buy. If anything, a future elite Top 5 MBA version may very well be HYSM + Wharton (and then Columbia).</p>
<p>Well, like I said, Haas has already superceded Columbia according to USNews, which is the same source you’ve been using to back your case for Yale SOM. </p>
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<p>And that presumes that Yale SOM will continue to improve and Haas won’t. Yet frankly, Haas is a far better business school than it was even 10 years ago when I doubt that it merited at top 10 position, maybe not even top 15. </p>
<p>I agree with you that Yale continues to improve and Haas doesn’t, then what you are saying is true. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that Yale will stop improving and Haas will continue to improve, in which case Haas will maintain its current lead over Yale and Columbia.</p>
<p>i agree that this is all just conjecture at this point. i’m just making certain extrapolations from recent data.</p>
<p>it would be interesting to see how Haas’ MBA rankings have changed over time:</p>
<ul>
<li>5 years ago</li>
<li>10 years ago</li>
<li>15 years ago</li>
</ul>
<p>As its already pretty clear that Yale SOM has risen from nowhere to a Top 10 position rather quickly.</p>
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<p>I wouldn’t exactly say it was nowhere. In starting an MBA a little less than a decade ago, I considered Yale SOM ~ #15 at the time.</p>
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<p>I think it would be interesting to look at the rise and fall of all of the B-schools over the last 15 years, except for HSW, which have no room left to rise.</p>
<p>I think what we would find is that Haas has been one of the faster risers during that time frame. As fast as Yale? Perhaps not. But certainly faster than many of the others.</p>
<p>Let me talk about brand name recognition and prestige on a global scale since a sizable portion of the grad (MBA, MS, MA, MSc) and postgrad (PhD) education students are from outside the US.</p>
<p>The claim that Columbia is more prestigious than UC Berkeley as a whole is unfounded. In fact, Columbia does not have the global recognition that Berkeley has. </p>
<p>Yale is also not more prestigious and more well-regarded than UC Berkeley and this is especially true outside of the US. If anything, they are just equally prestigious. Neither does not carry the name recognition and prestige that Harvard and Oxford do. But both schools belong to the next tier when it comes to prestige and brand name recognition. </p>
<p>Yale’s strength lies on its excellent undergrad and law education, whilst Berkeley’s strengths lie on its outstanding teaching and research in engineering, computer science, physical science and social science. Both Berkeley and Yale are just as highly regarded and prestigious. They both share the same name recognition and prestige with Stanford, MIT, Caltech and Cambridge. Columbia is in a notch below these schools, obviously. Columbia is just as prestigious as Duke, UPenn, Chicago, Michigan and UCLA.</p>
<p>I am Italian but educated in the US, Singapore and the United Kingdom. I’ve worked for a development bank which is based in Manila and Bangkok and had colleagues from some of the best schools in the world. I’ve traveled the world as part of my job and have been to several countries in Asia, MIddle East, Europe, Aftrica, Australia and South America. And in those countries that I’ve been to, Berkeley is often considered a highly prestigious name and Columbia isn’t. Even international league tables would suggest that Berkeley is a top global university and is a powerhouse in science, computer science, engineering and social science. Therefore to say that Yale can break the top 3 because it can capitalize on its brand name and Berkeley can’t because it’s not prestigious is a complete hoax.</p>
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<p>In law and undergrad, yes. But in physical science, computer science and engineering, Berkeley is substantially a stronger brand than is Yale. Thus, the lead of Yale’s strong reputation in law and undergrad has been matched by Berkeley’s strong science, compsci and engineering education. I would say that as a whole, they are just as prestigious, and both can bank on their highly respected brand names. In fact, even the US News PA survey ranked both schools equally. Most school presidents, scholars and academcians would believe Berkeley is a very prestigious school, including Yale’s very own and former Stanford’s president. </p>
<p>Sources:
[Criticism</a> of College Rankings - September 23, 1996](<a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html]Criticism”>Criticism of College Rankings - September 23, 1996)
[People’s</a> Daily Online – “I’m not member of Skull and Bones”, Yale President](<a href=“http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/12/eng20060212_241984.html]People’s”>http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/12/eng20060212_241984.html)</p>
<p>
Berkeley-Haas has also re-branded its MBA only about a decade ago and has improved a lot since then. In fact, 10 years ago, Berkeley’s MBA was not a top 10 program. Now, Berkeley is already a solid top 10 and USNews ranked Berkeley MBA #7, already ahead of Columbia and Dartmouth-Tuck. And, Berkeley-Haas is still improving. The alumni are more involved now than ever. It will rise more in the succeeding years as it has been in the recent past. Yale has already reached is peak and will start to plateau soon. </p>
<p>From the words of Dean Richard K. Lyons
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Over the next five to ten years, Berkeleys Haas School of Business will pull ahead of other top schools by building on its unique culture and strengths. Our strategic opportunities connect naturally to the three broad areas that define our distinctiveness: our People, our Reputation, and the rich Educational Experiences that differentiate a Haas degree.</p>
<p>The Campaign for Haas, part of a major campus-wide UC Berkeley capital campaign, is a platform for further solidifying the Haas School as one of the best business schools in the world. It builds on a strong foundation of educating innovative leaders. We do this with outstanding programs and core disciplines. We do this with direct access to the intellectual diversity that is UC Berkeley. And we do it with the innovation engine that is the Bay Area.
*
[Haas</a> Alumni Network - University of California Berkeley, Haas School of Business](<a href=“Berkeley Haas Alumni - Berkeley Haas”>Berkeley Haas Alumni - Berkeley Haas)</p>
<p>So, it’s very clear that Berkeley-Haas has streamlined goals and visions to become the best business school in the world. And, unlike some schools, Berkeley is really doing it can to accomplish those goals.
[Haas</a> Alumni Network - University of California Berkeley, Haas School of Business](<a href=“Berkeley Haas Alumni - Berkeley Haas”>Berkeley Haas Alumni - Berkeley Haas) </p>
<p>
Well, I think almost all the other top-ranked business schools can say the same thing. It’s easy to say we haven’t capitalized on our name yet, but the truth is, that is just an alibi. The truth is, it’s not that easy to develop a program that aims to become number 1. It needs a lot of time, money, man power and all other resources to develop a program to become the best. Yale hasn’t done that yet because it has limited resources to do it. Berkeley has a hard time to capitalize on its strong brand name because, like Yale, it still has limited resources. </p>
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<p>But then again, Yale does not have the brand name power that Harvard does. And Yale has just as much prestige as Berkeley has. Like I said, even Yale’s former president made that publicly. When one has to go out from is comfort zone and make a claim that will be quoted by the media and the people, that must be something real. [People’s</a> Daily Online – “I’m not member of Skull and Bones”, Yale President](<a href=“http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/12/eng20060212_241984.html]People’s”>http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/12/eng20060212_241984.html)</p>
<p>Sigh. </p>
<p>RML, you just don’t get it, do you?</p>
<p>he is very serious, which is the really sad thing.</p>
<p>Arguing with RML is insanity according to Albert Einstein… i.e. doing something 99 times and expecting a different result the 100th time:</p>
<p>1) Discussion regarding a topic (e.g. MBA programs)
2) Cal is mentioned
3) RML rushes in and jams engineering, math and science rankings down everyone’s throat
4) People run away</p>
<p>^ your reason that Yale can be a top business school is just the same as mine, only that you used Yale’s undergrad’s strength while I did Berkeley’s engineering and science. </p>
<p>Please study the arguments again and compare. Just change Yale’s undergrad strength with engineering. The flow of the reasoning is not different from each other. </p>
<p>Therefore, if you’re confident that Yale can be a top 3/4 b-school because it has a prestigious name, then I am also confident that Berkeley can do the same for the same reason that Yale has.</p>
<p>Wildflower, yes, I am serious. And, if you are too, please prove it to me that Columbia and Yale are way more prestigious than Berkeley.</p>
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<p>Really? Then please tell me which part of your argument did I not comprehend.</p>
<p>RML, I don’t mean to offend you or anything, but I see Berkeley as a school for people who couldn’t get into HYPSM. I’ll never forget watching a Full House episode where DJ got into Berkeley but was disappointed not getting into Stanford. Just one of few examples. That said, Berkeley is still a great school.</p>
<p>^ </p>
<p>Well, if we’re talking about undergrad education here, I wouldn’t contest to that. Like what everyone here believes in, HYPSM are superior to Berkeley. However, that is only mostly true for undergrad education. When it comes to grad and professional education, it’s everybody’s ballgame out there, with Stanford, Berkeley and Harvard leading on the race in terms of breadth, quality and prestige.</p>
<p>For example, when one has been admitted to both Berkeley and Yale to read PhD in Chemistry, would Yale beat Berkeley on the enrollment yield? I very much doubt it. And, if you doubted it as well, then it means Yale’s brand name has no bearing on Berkeley’s. Then that already challenged the_prestige’s argument. And, like I said, there are many, many programs that Berkeley offers where it is more attracted than Yale. For example, Berkeley’s Psychology is superior and more respected than Yale’s. Berkeley’s postgrad social science programs are superior to Yale’s. Berkeley’s computer science is a “milky way” more prestigious than Yale’s. Like I said, I can go on and on and on and would just bore everyone here to death just to prove that the Yale name is not at all superior to Berkeley’s name when it comes to grad, postgrad and professional education. Whichever school between the two has carved a niche on the field first gets the trophy. Undergrad and law go to Yale. But for almost all the rest, Berkeley gets the trophy.</p>
<p>Now, the argument of the_prestige is that Yale would eventually outperform Berkeley in MBA because it has a more prestigious name. So, I told him I don’t buy that argument. My reasons?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>He has not proven to me that Yale is more prestigious than Berkeley. In fact, I can show many more league tables that would support otherwise. </p></li>
<li><p>Yale has only 1 program where it is considered number 1 in the US, whereas Berkeley has more than 5 programs where it is considered number 1. That’s more than 5 programs against 1 program. There are also many more programs where Berkeley is considered superior to Yale. For example, Berkeley’s Economics is slightly superior to Yale’s. Berkeley’s History program is slightly superior to Yale’s. So, how many programs does Yale have that we can really say that they better studied there than in Berkeley’s? Not a lot. In fact, other than law and undergrad, Berkeley is the better and the more attractive school. Now, my question: if Yale has the better branding than Berkeley has, how come many of its programs are not superior to Berkeley’s? So, it’s clear that the_Prestige’s argument lacks merit and therefore a very weak argument. In fact, he can’t even support his argument because it’s obvious that it was only carved out from his personal opinion. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Now, I haven’t even touched and mentioned engineering just to prove my point. Yet, I’m going expect that he will touch that subject to rebut my statements, again. But then again, I don’t see why I couldn’t use that idea to bolster my argument when I’m showing Berkeley’s ability to develop a very successful program. I mean, it’s the strongest evidence that Berkeley can develop a program to a top-notched level. I also don’t see why its blasphemous for Berkeley to capitalize on its strong engineering program when its peer schools are also capitalizing on that same program such as Stanford and MIT. In the same manner, I don’t see anything wrong for Yale to capitalize on its strong law program to further boost its business school, or Hopkins for having a world-class medical education.</p>
<p>And, of course, there are other factors involved here as well, such as location, scholarship grants, alumni support, orientation, affiliation, etc, ect…</p>
<p>But what bout MIT?</p>