<p>Where is the link for the Roxbury Latin numbers? If you don't have one, there's no way to verify that it is accurate.</p>
<p>Well, if you look at College admit rates to HYPSM and the Ivies, St. Paul's is no. 1, then Milton (we have such a kick ass college office it's insane) then Phillips Academy Andover, and I forget the rest (prepschoolreview.com has a chart.)</p>
<p>Re: RL</p>
<p>They used to get like 20% of their class into Harvard, and above 50% into HYPSM Ivy. However, they got SLAMMED last year with colleges, from what I hear. They were not top ten on prepschoolreview...</p>
<p>There have been so many lengthy replies and I don't really have the time to answer all of them. I will say, again, if it was unclear that I have no hatred of Exeter or Andover, and both of them are great schools. I just think that people often confuse name recognition with prestige. That's all. In terms of the discussion of proportions, considering how difficult it is today to be admitted to Andover and Exeter, it's kind of sad that several hundred graduates of both end up at lower tier colleges and a large percentage of students don't get into their first choice school - whether it is an Ivy or not. At Andover counselors actually (almost) require that students apply to only one school EA (if they don't choose the ED route, which a huge percentage of students do because of pressure/competitiveness) and asks students to treat it as ED - i.e. they commit to attending. Exeter has one of the highest number of students each year that end up taking a year off after school, with or without a deferment from their chosen college (often due to burn-out), and fewer and fewer students are being admitted to top schools each year. Exeter and Andover (but Andover in particular) accepts superstars already, as opposed to creating them, and with all of the stress and pressure to stand-out, I know several kids who just ended up not getting much out of their educational experience in terms of personal growth and maturation, and a greater intellectual curiosity. The Harkness method is a case in point at Exeter, the focus is on the student instead of the teacher. It's sort of like they're saying 'we have this tough admissions process and we've accepted some bright kids, so let's let them teach each other.' While that seems like a reasonable idea, you'll be suprised if you were to meet a random selection of Exeter grads in terms of the value of that concept. I actually like the Harkness method to be used in certain instances, but Exeter has greater problems with its curriculum than its reliance on that form of education (it will take me too long to explain this in detail).</p>
<p>With regard to St. Paul's, in the humanities you can't really get a better education than SPS (also a great language and dance program to bout). In terms of prestige, Deerfield has tons of it. Middlesex is a true gem, and few are aware of how incredible its academic program is. Milton Academy has an incredible student body and one of the lowest acceptance rates of all top boarding schools. Many Milton students went prestigious national awards/competitions, and it is a highly competitive school with probably the best overall academic climate of the schools mentioned here. Lawrenceville today is sort of what Exeter once was in its glory days, and its headmaster has really done an incredible job raising the bar there.</p>
<p>I apologize for anyone who is offended by this. This isn't my intention. But these observations are not personal, but rather a genuinely accepted reality among those who are knowledgeable of not just their alma matter, but prep schools in general.</p>
<p>Can someone post the prepschoolreview rankings in their entirety?</p>
<p>"At Andover counselors actually (almost) require that students apply to only one school EA (if they don't choose the ED route, which a huge percentage of students do because of pressure/competitiveness) and asks students to treat it as ED - i.e. they commit to attending."</p>
<p>this isnt true.</p>
<p>i dont want to go into anything else you said about the "genuinely accepted reality among those who are knowledgeable of not just their alma matter, but prep schools in general." i really cant claim to be an expert on any other prep school than my own. but ive met a fair share of people from exeter, deerfield, middlesex, and sps, and i can make one sweeping generalization-- everyone looks back on their school fondly and is fiercely loyal. obviously, everyone thinks that theirs was the best if they really loved it. so i will make another sweeping generalization that theyre all really great schools. as such, i think its really sad that people care about prep school rankings, perhaps even sadder than the fact that:
"several hundred graduates of both end up at lower tier colleges and a large percentage of students don't get into their first choice school."
a year? a decade? since dubya was an andover cheerleader? kids still do pretty well. i mean, as hard as it is for buffy that she didnt get into yale and had to go to penn, i think shell be ok. everyone gets into college, and the kids who worked really hard will be rewarded. and if you kind of slacked off in the middle and didnt end up at your first choice school, everyone from my class has had great luck transferring. so things dont end on april 1st of your senior year.</p>
<p>as to this:
"Exeter and Andover (but Andover in particular) accepts superstars already, as opposed to creating them, and with all of the stress and pressure to stand-out, I know several kids who just ended up not getting much out of their educational experience in terms of personal growth and maturation, and a greater intellectual curiosity. "</p>
<p>the sooner you stop trying to be the best at your prep school, the better. chances are, there are kids who are smarter, faster, or better at the oboe than you are. and thats ok! you learn to only be competitive with yourself. kids are supportive of each other! really, once you move the parents from the equation its less about winning. most importantly, the best part about going to a school of superstars where you might not shine the brightest is that you learn so much from your peers. some of my fondest memories are of the amazing conversations i had over dinner with someone really smart whose backround is very different than mine. that will happen at any of these schools, even big scary andover where everyone is burned out tired of not being the best and hates life. worst place ever! my neighbor told me so!</p>
<p>also, no one falls through the cracks at the big schools, they have less than 1100 kids but more teachers, so the teacher-student ratio doesnt suffer. everyone has a teacher they care about who cares about them. its a non-issue.</p>
<p>the last thing i want to say before i move on with my life is NO ONE SITS AROUND TALKING ABOUT PRESTIGE. like "ohh im sitting out on the beautiful lawn at xxxxxx having tons of fun with my friends, but everyone knows that i would be having a richer experience at xxxxxx, it is far more presitigious for people who KNOW prep schools. i really made a huge mistake." and when you meet other people who went to prep school, its not like "oh, you went to xxxxxx, sucks about all those things people who didnt go there make up on college confidential. you must have hated it!" in fact, theres an instant bond, because we both had unique and wonderful high school experiences that really werent that different from one another. you really become who you are while youre at prep school, which makes your feelings for it really intense. college just cant compare.</p>
<p>so stop making stuff up.</p>
<p>This is getting ugly................</p>
<p>For some students, a school like Andover or Exeter is a good fit. The depth of courses and extracurriculars there are unbelievable. </p>
<p>For other students, a school like Middlesex is the best option. The bonds between students and faculty are great, and more emphesis is placed on personal growth.</p>
<p>It really depends on what the individual student needs or is looking for. I'm really opposed to ranking schools because the best school for one student might not be a good option for another. </p>
<p>I go to Andover currently, I wasn't looking for prestige or what school sounded the most impressive. I looked at Middlesex, Brooks School, Concord Academy, GDA, Deerfield and several other New England schools. Honestly, the school that I felt the most comfortable at was Andover, so I decided to go there. Had I felt more confortable at Middlesex or Brooks, I would have gone there without opposition from my parents.</p>
<p>Don't go into the prep school admissions search without thinking about how you learn best and what kind of school would best fit your needs. </p>
<ul>
<li>an Andover student, class of 09'</li>
</ul>
<p>I think he's just bitter that he dind't go to Exeter/Andover. </p>
<p>We're not saying all the other schools are worse or that E/A is better. </p>
<p>It doesn't MATTER if you get into an Ivy or NOT. Jesus H. Chirst. Why are we judging schools based on where people end up going?</p>
<p>Very well said, collegedropout</p>
<p>So, David: you decided to start a firestorm because you met a couple A/E grads who weren't up to your standards of "intellectual maturity" (whatever that means)? What a good idea. Those Ivy Matriculation numbers really help solidify your argument, I might add. They absolutely have everything to do with "intellectual maturity". Plus, your sweeping generalizations about schools you never went to and were probably rejected from really carry a lot of weight in these forums, especially amongst A/E grads/students who seem to be agreeing with you on every contention. Do us all a favor and quit while you're not really ahead.</p>
<p>And in regards to the difference between prestige and name recognition, I hate to inform you that there really isn't one. Prestige is entirely based on outside perception, so if everyone thinks that Andover is prestigious, then by God, maybe it is prestigious.</p>
<p>"1 : standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion
2 : commanding position in people's minds"</p>
<p><a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prestige%5B/url%5D">http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prestige</a></p>
<p>P.S. I hope you're not from St. Paul's, I have so much respect for that school.</p>
<p>Of course lots of kids apply EA/Ed. That is a good strategy and it is typical of all the prep schools.</p>
<p>Other reasons for Ivy not to be first choice:</p>
<p>You want to be in the South/Midwest/Rockies/West Coast.
You want to play D2 or D3 sports.</p>
<p>You want an extracurricular that they do not have.</p>
<p>You want to do engineering- Ivies are fine for this, but there are lots of places that are just as good, or better.</p>
<p>You want to major in computer science at CMU.</p>
<p>You want a major that they do not have at the Ivies- the flagship state schools have MANY more choices.</p>
<p>There are many others. "Ivy" and "first choice" are not the same thing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Harkness method is a case in point at Exeter, the focus is on the student instead of the teacher. It's sort of like they're saying 'we have this tough admissions process and we've accepted some bright kids, so let's let them teach each other.'
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What a terrible interpretation of the Harkness method.</p>
<p>You make it seem like the Harkness table involves a bunch of kids sitting around a table and the teacher just checks out while the students have indoors recess. Absolutely not.</p>
<p>The only thing that you got right is the fact that the focus is very much indeed on the student rather than the teacher - which it very well should be - i.e. the teacher doesn't need anymore attention or focus. But let's not underestimate the importance of the teacher. The teacher is still very much in charge of this process: providing the topics of discussion, highlighting important themes / points, sets the agenda, leads / guides discussions, etc, etc. I still have very vivid memories of some excellent discussions which took place around the Harkness table back in my old prep days.</p>
<p>The beauty of this method of teaching is that everyone's input is encouraged - and in many cases required - there's no place to hide. It may be daunting at first but IMO it is provides a powerful backdrop which encourages creativity while fostering critical thinking.</p>
<p>Word. 10char</p>
<p>Well said IvyGrad--</p>
<p>I went to a school with the Harkness method and it was by far one of the most rewarding and beneficial parts of my education. I feel that I learned more through the Harkness method than I could have in other 'traditional' forms of teaching high school.</p>
<p>i have a question for someone who graduated from exeter. does anyone have a theory why exeter has so many more graduates in the top lacs like amherst and williams than andover? or rather, do you think that the emphasis on class discussion of the harkness method inspires students to attend lacs to continue this style of education? ive always thought that it was strange that two schools that have so much in common would have such different success rates at the lacs.</p>
<p>are we back to talking about matrics?</p>
<p>I think it definitely has to do with Harkness, to a certain extent. I know people in college who had a hard time transitioning to lecture courses, to having to raise their hands, to larger classes in general. People understand that college will be different, but they want to replicate positive experiences. And if being at Exeter, which would be the size of a small college, and having smaller classes was a positive experience, people are interested in finding a college like that. And I think that might be true of people at any prep school, it's just that maybe some LACs can perform that duty better to Exeter grads. Some people come away from Exeter feeling like Harkness is optimal and they want to hold on to that as much as they can. Others can't wait to try something different.</p>
<p>thanks for your reply! my question wasnt really about matrics, i just dont know much about harkness (i didnt look at exeter when i applied to prep school, until yesterday i thought it was only about the type of table everyone sat around). sounds fun!</p>
<p>I have a question........Middlesex uses the "Socratic" method of teaching, how does this differ from the "Harkness" method? Or are they the same, similar or?</p>
<p>collegedropout, I thought we may have come to the conclusion that not everyone in bs want to go to ivies. Maybe the students at the one school prefer LACS.</p>