<p>
at least, it was, until people like aerialblue took over and wanted to make it a run-of-the-mill school
</p>
<p>Those 4 years of drunken haze pong playing have done you very well, fratdaddy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
johnleemk, your post is borderline incoherent and really doesn't address the OP's point. Someone else has already tried to address a point I've made, and I find it quite strange that I'm the only one who has actually answered to the OP directly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Considering the incongruence of your "frat hard" behavior freshman year and your sudden hatred of the Greek system, I think you're the incoherent one. You know why most of our freshman floor didn't want to hang out with you? It's because we could tell you were trying too hard to fit in. If you can't fit in, then find a place where you can - it's good you're trying to transfer to a better fit for you.</p>
<p>Considering the OP and other readers are trying to weigh the pros and cons of Dartmouth, it's completely fair to them that we discuss specific gripes with Dartmouth so they'll know what they're getting into. Dartmouth is great for a lot of people, but for an unlucky few, not so much. If you want to avoid this conversation, it seems rather hypocritical of you, considering you've acknowledged virtually everywhere on this forum that Dartmouth has a lot of potential downsides (depending on your personality) that not many are aware of.</p>
<p>It seems that you think what you say is a valid addition to the discussion, but my response to you is not. If you don't want to have a conversation about what's wrong with Dartmouth, and just want to let your reply stand alone - while everyone "responds to the OP" with inanities about how great Dartmouth is...too bad.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But that's not exactly what dcd posted about a year back - that it gets harder and harder to mix into newer groups as you get older at Dartmouth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To some extent, undoubtedly yes, but I've made new friends sophomore year. I've made them at work, in class, and at my friends' floors. It all depends on whether you put in the effort to find the right people to mix with - if you get turned away by one group, find another. The main reason it's harder sophomore year is that cliques are established and that the spirit and overbearing orientation activities of freshman year are gone. These aren't even close to insurmountable obstacles.</p>
<p>We're talking about social life, dude. Every individual relates differently. Dcd had a hard time; I haven't. That's why we have different takes on Dartmouth social life. And judging from how many people are happy at Dartmouth, I'd say there's not <em>a whole lot</em> of negative things you can say about our social life here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You've pointed out that the prime opportunities for establishing your social groups are there during Orientation and rush. But for those people who never really took the time freshman year to establish a clique, but want to start sophomore year - what about those guys?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nearly everyone can find their social niche as long as you don't push people away or act like an idiot. I've heard stories about people showing up drunk to society meetings or yelling anti-semitic slurs at their floor after a night out - obviously it'll be harder for people like those to make friends. Nearly everyone I know - even the not very social types - found their own clique during freshman year. (I'm pretty sure you did.) You have to be a complete social retard not to make any lasting friends as a freshman.</p>
<p>Of course, if you change as a sophomore and decide you need to make friends after all, it is a lot harder because you lack activities and a friendly atmosphere to get you ingratiated to random folks you meet. If I were in the shoes of someone like that, I'd probably wind up talking a lot more to the random '12s I meet in classes and the guys I see on my floor.</p>
<p>But remember, if we take your assumption about the social impermeability of upperclassman life for granted, all transfers must thus graduate virtually friendless. And that obviously isn't the case. If you can't make lasting friends at any time in your Dartmouth career, something's wrong with you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
People in the House System or Residential Colleges do not effectively segregate themselves from the rest of campus. Not only are these systems hallmarks of dorm life community at the respective colleges, but people from different houses/colleges also visit each other quite frequently.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have friends in both Harvard and Yale, and I've visited both of them twice. The simple fact is that it's a lot easier to stay in and hang out with the people you already know in your house/college. I'm not saying you're coerced or forced into doing it - just that the default is to stick with a group you've already established within your house/college. If you're really incapable of making new friends elsewhere, this probably suits you. But if you try to hang out with people outside your house/college you may find it harder because most people will be cool with just staying in their own ground. I visited Yale a couple of months back and my friend who was showing me around mostly hung out with people from her own college.</p>
<p>Again, I'm not saying this is bad or good - it's just how I see it. And hey, you have a different take on how things are in Dartmouth versus other schools. That's fine. Some things are good for you but bad for me, and vice-versa. You just really shouldn't pretend that the problems you've encountered are problems which most people at Dartmouth face.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In fact, you could replace "Harvard/Yale" with "Dartmouth" and "houses/residential colleges" with "fraternity houses" and your statement would still make sense logically, but might not necessarily be true (although, just for the edification of CC readers, it pretty much is true). Please be more careful before you write!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think the two are very comparable, considering that at Dartmouth you have a choice between being unaffiliated and going Greek, while you have to join a house or college in Harvard/Yale. The social dynamics of Greek houses are also extremely different since a lot of brothers don't <em>live</em> in them. Sure, they are a social barrier of sorts, but I would say they're probably not as problematic as residential houses/colleges.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It sucks that you can't keep your Dartmouth fever in check, I know, so you must respond with rebuttals every time I try to post a valid criticism of the school (notice how most of the other Dartmouth lovers have remained silent). But don't try to mislead prospective students by effectively censoring the "bad" posts about Dartmouth. I like Dartmouth for many of the things it has given me. But I also write balanced posts and point out the negatives of our school. I think that's the only fair thing to do.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not the one who told other posters to "GTFO." I said I think you're quite right to give your opinion of things at Dartmouth. Where I think you go wrong is that you assume what's bad for you must by implication be bad for everyone else. Maybe these problems you're pointing out are, hey, things other people like about Dartmouth! You took Econ 1, you know that different people have different utility functions.</p>
<p>And as I said, I don't think Dartmouth is a perfect fit for me, or that it's a perfect fit for everyone. But like you, as I've said in other threads, I like the access to profs and the general academics here. And unlike you, I like the social life here - I'm satisfied with it. I'm not a big Dartmouth fan by any means (you of all people should know that) - most of the things that make Dartmouth appeal to other people (athletics, frats) don't really do much for me. But I'm objective enough to know that most people at Dartmouth do love it here, and that for most people, Dartmouth is a fantastic place to be at.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes, I see you thought it fine that most of your floor left you for the fraternities, as you have so poignantly stated in another thread. Perhaps living on an empty floor with no hall activity is cool to you. But yeah! Different strokes for different folks, man!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think you're referring to our freshman floor, since as you very well know, a bunch of us hang out all the time - even those of us who are now affiliated. If you're referring to the floor I'm staying on now, yes, I don't care that my floormates are all affiliated and I'm not. We don't have similar interests, and that's cool. I don't expect much social engineering from the Dartmouth administration.</p>
<p>As I said, different people have different preferences. Maybe you expect your floor to be always vibrant and full of people inviting you to do things. I like being able to plan my own social life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You agree with him, because he says exactly what you want to hear.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Dude, it's clear you've decided you hate Dartmouth social life. Would it kill you to admit that some others who don't fully partake of the boot and rally culture can still enjoy themselves here?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you're absolutely confused over what actually constitutes "good" dorm life, but I should point out that it's hard to go lower than deserted hallways with pretty much no community - which is the case for the upperclass dorms.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The hell? I've visited Yale and Harvard twice each, and every time the hallways of the colleges and houses I went to were deserted. The common areas were occupied, of course, but hey, that's just like Dartmouth! It's true things could be better - I don't think I've ever said otherwise - but that doesn't mean residential life is an abomination. I know a girl who doesn't ever drink or frat hard and she made friends with a bunch of AD brothers because they study in the same common area.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But don't try to validate something that even the Dartmouth administration itself posits as a problem here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Eh, considering the incredible student backlash when they tried to push the SLI as a fix, I wouldn't be so sure about that. On this note, as I said earlier, I think EW is an interesting contrast to other dorms because they do seem to have better residential life. (This does come at the cost of putting up with somewhat weird people in the dorm - maybe it's the common weirdness that makes socializing easier.) If there were a way to create a similar sort of atmosphere in other dorms, minus the weirdness, I wouldn't mind.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In case your feeble mind hasn't noticed, johnleemk didn't address the OP...AT ALL.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was clarifying the fact that your opinion of Dartmouth is subjective, and that not everyone experiences Dartmouth the way you do. I think that's a valid contribution to the discussion - don't you? In case you haven't noticed, you're the only one in this thread to have told anyone to shut up or "GTFO."</p>
<p>Anyhow to reiterate, I agree with you completely that Dartmouth is not a perfect or even good fit for everyone. But I know a lot of people in a similar position as you - nerdy, unaffiliated, don't really fit in with the standard Dartmouth social scene. I have never heard anyone other than you consider transferring. The closest thing was one comment about how maybe Tufts might have been a better fit - and the person who said that is now extremely happy and secure here, even though his interests don't jibe at all with those of the typical Dartmouth kid.</p>
<p>So, I think it's good that we be open about how Dartmouth may not be a perfect fit for everyone, and that for a few, it may even be the exact opposite. But many of us here who don't fit in completely are still loving it. And stop putting up this farce of pretending to be openminded and trying to ensure all points of view are heard - until you began making personal attacks and telling others to GTFO, this debate was civil and polite. As I said, I don't have a problem with your point of view, and I actually agree with a lot of points you make. What I have a problem with is that you often act as if your point of view is the only valid and acceptable one.</p>
<p>Agreed. And aerial, I agree with johnleemk not because he says what I want to hear, but because what he says jibes with my experiences during four years in Hanover. Does Dartmouth have things that could be improved? Undoubtedly, and I've listed a few in this thread and elsewhere. But as someone who was unaffiliated and didn't really partake of the frat/athletic culture, I can also say that, on the whole, I loved my time at Dartmouth. For me (and I'd say for the vast majority of students), the good things far outweigh the bad. And I can only think of perhaps one or two of the hundreds of Dartmouth students I consider friends who would disagree with that statement. That includes many who were not actively involved in fraternities, sororities or athletics. </p>
<p>Dartmouth has a lot of things to love, and a few things that can be worked on. I don't think anyone has disputed that there's room for improvement. But, having been a student at several very well-known institutions, I have yet to find a place that does it better. In fact, the very administration I think could be pruned and improved at Dartmouth far surpasses the bureaucracies at any other school I've been affiliated (five, at last count). Again, that's not saying it couldn't be improved--it can, and I've outlined ways it could be done in the past--but just that, for my complaints about it, I have yet to find anywhere that has been able to improve on it. At least for me, that's also true for most (not all) facets of academic and student life.</p>
<p>I'm sorry you don't feel that way, and I wish you luck in your transfer to Columbia.</p>
<p>
Considering the incongruence of your "frat hard" behavior freshman year and your sudden hatred of the Greek system, I think you're the incoherent one. You know why most of our freshman floor didn't want to hang out with you? It's because we could tell you were trying too hard to fit in.
</p>
<p>I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, so I'm going to assume that you were high when you wrote your post. I've only been to a frat maybe about 5 times in the course of my time here at Dartmouth. </p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems that you think what you say is a valid addition to the discussion, but my response to you is not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I honestly don't care what you think. People here have told me that I was helpful to them, and that's good enough for me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some things are good for you but bad for me, and vice-versa. You just really shouldn't pretend that the problems you've encountered are problems which most people at Dartmouth face.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>ARE YOU HONESTLY RETARDED. My points are things that affect ALL Dartmouth students, not just a select few. The fact that ECs here are terrible? Definitely a point for all to consider. The fact that Greek life defines the social atmosphere here? Also a point for all to consider.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't think the two are very comparable, considering that at Dartmouth you have a choice between being unaffiliated and going Greek, while you have to join a house or college in Harvard/Yale. The social dynamics of Greek houses are also extremely different since a lot of brothers don't <em>live</em> in them. Sure, they are a social barrier of sorts, but I would say they're probably not as problematic as residential houses/colleges.
[/quote]
</p>
<p><em>Facepalm</em> I'm not even going to argue the sheer idiocy of this quote, for people at Yale don't really have negative things to say about the Residential Colleges. The Greek system at Dartmouth however...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Where I think you go wrong is that you assume what's bad for you must by implication be bad for everyone else. Maybe these problems you're pointing out are, hey, things other people like about Dartmouth!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, see above. There is little subjectivity in my posts. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't think you're referring to our freshman floor, since as you very well know, a bunch of us hang out all the time - even those of us who are now affiliated. If you're referring to the floor I'm staying on now, yes, I don't care that my floormates are all affiliated and I'm not. We don't have similar interests, and that's cool. I don't expect much social engineering from the Dartmouth administration.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. ARE YOU HIGH?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Eh, considering the incredible student backlash when they tried to push the SLI as a fix, I wouldn't be so sure about that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Absolutely, incredibly, and laughably false. The only reason why people opposed the SLI plans was because the administration wanted to do them at the expense of the Greek system. Wright openly admitted that he wanted to get rid of the fraternities (perhaps, like someone else said here, to make Dartmouth more "Harvard" like). Otherwise, NOBODY WOULD BE OPPOSED TO HAVING RESIDENTIAL HOUSE SYSTEMS ALONGSIDE AN INCLUSIVE GREEK SYSTEM. That you would even suggest something like people opposing that one aspect of the SLI, is quite telling of your intelligence here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have never heard anyone other than you consider transferring.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>One of my closest friends actually transferred to Cornell (starting this semester). I know at least 2 other people, myself not included, writing up transfer applications to Columbia right now. </p>
<p>
[quote]
What I have a problem with is that you often act as if your point of view is the only valid and acceptable one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>johnleemk, while I usually respect your posts, you did yourself (and perhaps Dartmouth) injustice in this thread by not responding to the OP. You say that I act like my view is the only valid one, but when almost every other poster here posts ONLY good things about the school and puts on this facade making Dartmouth out to be a school with no flaws, then the problem doesn't lie with me.</p>
<p>Okay, so I don't actually -go- to Dartmouth yet, but I spent a few days on campus and noticed a few things I liked.</p>
<p>-- The River, which has the reputation for being the worst dorm on campus, is probably the same quality as an average state school dorm. The rooms aren't horrible, but the location is.
-- East Wheelock, which has the reputation for being one of the nicest clusters on campus, reminded me of a spaceship. I went into a single in Andres and it was TINY! The whole layout of EW reminds me of an 80's spaceship.. I don't even know how to describe it.
-- McLaughlin Cluster, on the other hand, was amazing.
-- The NAD house is very welcoming to prospies and the rooms are fairly large.
-- I wasn't a huge fan of Collis or Novack, but I liked Thayer.
-- The town of Hanover isn't bad if you like to explore random shops like I do; however, some of them are very strange. I wouldn't do any actual shopping in Hanover, but the Advance Transit is free and goes to West Leb :)
-- The campus is frickin gorgeous.
-- People actually hang out on the Green and play Frisbee and stuff.
-- The athletic facilities were nice.
-- People were very, very friendly to me. One person put a sign on their window that said "Go to Dartmouth; you'll love it here!" haha. Another person (an athlete, I think) saw that I had a bit of trouble navigating around the dining hall and helped me get what I wanted, even if I felt a bit like an invalid XD. I sat with random people and they all were so nice and friendly! The one I remember the most was a guy that I sat across from on the Dartmouth Coach and just started chatting about random stuff like I was one of his good friends. No one that I met was cold or arrogant at all.
-- That said, I also know a lot of people that really enjoyed the drinking scene. I'm not into it, but if you're looking for a party scene, you won't have to look very far.</p>
<p>Although it's nice to see an active discussion on the board, there's no need for personal attacks. Stick with criticism and compliments about the school and not about each other, maybe?</p>
<p>aerial,</p>
<p>I don't understand why you say the ECs are terrible. My D and friends are involved in the music performing groups (instrumental and vocal) and theater (theater dept and improv groups) and LOVE them. These activities are making the college experience for them.</p>
<p>D also has a big group of friends totally into all that the outing club offers- a really terrific resource for the outdoor lovers. There are multiple active clubs under the DOC umbrella.</p>
<p>1ofeach, read my older posts. It's not just me saying that the ECs here are terrible. Here's one comparison:</p>
<p>Dartmouth</a> Asian Organization
Columbia</a> University Asian American Alliance (AAA)</p>
<p>Not even close I would say.</p>
<p>Well you should say the Asian organization isn't good. Not that all ECs are terrible. And isn't the burden of a social organization on the students to make the organization good?</p>
<p>Interesting thread. Two thoughts: First, Dartmouth College has a 98% freshman retention rate according to USNews' America's Best Colleges, and, second, what if aerialblue is not accepted to Columbia University?</p>
<p>Aerialblue: Have you considered applying to other universities such as Penn, Northwestern or Georgetown?</p>
<p>^Yes. BUT...where are the students?</p>
<p>Dartmouth ECs are uniformly terrible (and I say this in comparison to the other Ivy League schools, which is IMO, the only reasonable comparison we should be making). Anyways, I'm not going to rehash old posts I've written.</p>
<p>ColdWind, I would rather go to Dartmouth than all of those other schools you've listed. I can see that you think I'm an incredibly charged poster who hates the College, when in fact, I'm very thankful for many of the opportunities Dartmouth has given me. </p>
<p>Though, nice try at the personal attack though.</p>
<p>EDIT: Anymore biased attacks on my posts? I'm a little bored on this holiday here :-)</p>
<p>What "personal attack"? Were you referring to my post #30? I am an adult poster & was just trying to be helpful. Unfortunately if you think that my post #30 above was intended as any type of personal attack, then you raise issues about your judgment & credibility.</p>
<p>ColdWind, I was incredibly offended by your post regarding my transfer status. Another poster has also tried to bring that up in this thread, clearly in an attempt to ruffle feathers. Once again, transferring has nothing to do with this thread. My transfer preferences are none of your business, unless I ask you!</p>
<p>ColdWind, I didn't read your post as an attack. I thought you were trying to be helpful, and suggested some mighty fine schools. I, also, am just a parent... but I would think a poster's intent to transfer, including the circumstances and goals surrounding that intent, is material information for anyone seeking to give appropriate weight to the poster's opinions.</p>
<p>i just have to say, i hope that no one reads this and gets completely turned off of dartmouth...i have already applied and still absolutely love the school, but seriously! message each other if you're going to argue! i want to read about what people like about dartmouth!</p>
<p>This might not be a pro, but you have a reasonable degree of freedom in selecting your classes. Aside from your distribs (which you can just fulfill with gut classes anyways, OR with pretty interesting classes if you're up for a challenge), your major requirements can be pretty flexible. I've found the Math and Neuroscience majors to be incredibly flexible (you can take a bunch of CS classes for the Math major, and some not Neuroscience/Psych classes for the Neuroscience major). You can also negotiate with the Faculty to exempt you from those ridiculous waste-of-time Introductory classes if you've taken the necessary postreqs - I know this is especially true for Math where some guys come in taking grad level classes.</p>
<p>EDIT: I should add that this is a point in favor of the relatively lax administration here at Dartmouth. Some departments just totally suck though (most notably, Econ and Government) but if you look hard, there are certainly some gems to be had.</p>
<p>There are certainly a fair number of students who Dartmouth is a bad fit for. It's like we're talking about 2 different schools when I talk to an associate with a very unhappy freshman as the mother of a spectacularly happy one. I often wonder why some who vehemently dislike Dartmouth went. Everything they seem not to like is in every book and quite visible during a weekend visit.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is a school of extremes, there are many who would not like what 80% of the student body seem to feel is paradise.</p>
<p>I think Coldwind was on the right track in that Aerial would be much happier somewhere else, which is fair enough. However I'm guessing good fits might be Chicago and Swat in addition to Columbia, not NU and Penn which are socially very similar.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I often wonder why some who vehemently dislike Dartmouth went.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many reasons. Prestige is an obvious one. But also, Dartmouth sells itself as a school that's focused on its undergraduates, and you have posters like slipper on CC who basically say that Dartmouth is the best thing on this side of the Atlantic. I didn't even apply to Columbia or any of the city schools when I was a high school senior. But what you want out of the college experience can change over time. Let's be serious here, 18 year olds don't really have a grip of what they want in life. You need to give these people a break. Perhaps you are overestimating the amount of information one can really glean as a high school senior.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is a school of extremes, there are many who would not like what 80% of the student body seem to feel is paradise.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I'd say probably more like 60-70%. I'd say a good 20% is indifferent (that is, they don't care whether they're at say...Columbia, or here, and Dartmouth was probably the most prestigious school they got into or something like that) and maybe like 10% hate the school (conservative estimate. Believe me, I'm actually quite surprised at the number of haters here). Dartmouth is not a very intellectual school...at all. As a high school senior, I thought it could have been. Invariably, many competitive students of Dartmouth's caliber (at or applying to Dartmouth) will no doubt, want some things intellectual.</p>
<p>dartmouth.</p>