The biggest mistake you can make is...

College Search & Selection
101

<p>barrons-
I wrote my own program to do the calculation…that explains the error.</p>

<p>My neighbor from home is graduating from Wisconsin this weekend with PhD in Chem. I heard that his parents started yesterday on the 10-hour drive from Rochester to Madison. He has a teaching job lined up in Baltimore and his wife is also getting her PhD this weekend from Wisconsin and is doing a post-doc at JHU. While at Wisconsin he applied his biochem knowledge to learning how to make beer. His father brought my family a few bottles. Very high alcohol content and very good taste, I hear.</p>

102

<p>“You need to think long term, past the implications for yourself, into the future, and the implications for your child’s financial well-being and happiness.”</p>

<p>That IS precisely what I am talking about here. I have run the FAFSA calculators. Our family EFC is exactly what Happydad and I are putting into our IRAs plus what we are sending to Happygrandma each year. If Happychild elects to study at a college/university that will require us to pay the full EFC Happygrandma won’t eat, and by not maxing out our retirement funds, we will be setting up Happychild to be in the same situation that we are currently in when it comes time to pay for the educations of any potential Happygrandchildren. Frankly, I don’t want to ever see my child being sandwiched between the real needs of an aging parent (or multiple aging parents) and the real needs of a growing child (or children). Happydad and I are oddly fortunate that one set of grandparents is dead, and the other divorced so that Happygrandfather’s second wife and their kids can worry about him. We have only one grandparent, and one child to worry about.</p>

<p>“You have greatly exagerrated in your mind the financial implications of paying for a college education.”</p>

<p>Believe me, I do know what it is like to crawl out from under a boat-load of college debt. Evidently, you haven’t had that experience yet.</p>

<p>“There is nothing more important than a child’s furure.”</p>

<p>Absolutely true. That is why we are doing what we are doing, and why we will make every effort to come through the college experience with as little debt as possible.</p>

103

<p>Thank god for the HP 12C. 20+ years old and still ticking. Sounds like your friends got some decent jobs for fresh PhD’s too.<br>
I’m more a single malt guy. Unless it’s hot and I’m really thirsty. Then I like a cold gold one. A 6pack lasts me all summer.</p>

104

<p>If parents truly loved their child, they would sacrifice everything for their child’s education; be it through backbreaking work, crushing debt, lost retirement or selling their house and moving into a crummy apartment. </p>

<p>A loving child on the other hand wouldn’t let his/her parents go through so much pain and is consequently willing to go to the cheapest college possible(e.g a JC). </p>

<p>Thus, after a long struggle, the child would end up somewhere in the middle( not a JC but not exactly Harvard either). This probably would be the result of maximum mutual love between parents and their children.</p>

105

<p>Some of these assumptions, particularly about majors, are false. I have a good friend who is an MD, an anesthesiologist. He attended Columbia. His heart’s desire was to be an English major, but he could never get an A in an English course at Columbia. That’s not one. So he switched to biology and got fairly easy A’s. The humanities are NOT where the less intelligent congregate to find easy courses.</p>

106

<p>I hope to contribute to the overall theme of the thread here…</p>

<p>I am my expensive, top-ranked dream school where I’m about 25th - 50th percentile. My SAT scores were towards the bottom of the midrange, and my GPA is lower than average. If I had a different attitude, I’d walk around and feel dumb all the time, but I’m pretty indomitable when it comes to academics, so I rarely get anxious or frustrated when I see my dizzyingly smart peers outpace me in just about everything and anything. </p>

<p>What have I gained from this supercharged atmosphere? The chance to be around people like me, and the chance to grow academically. My academic work-- my ways of thinking-- my ways of thinking about thinking-- have been changed so dramatically due to my undergraduate education.</p>

<p>However, I don’t think I’m learning all there is to learn, and if I went to a school where I was towards the top, I would put my emphasis on other projects. At Chicago, my extracurricular accomplishments are relatively small because I put a lot of emphasis on academics, on attending campus events, and on my social life, but if I went to an “easier” school I would immerse myself in other opportunities that I find challenging (i.e. working in a school, Habitat for Humanity, writing a novel, etc.) and I think I would be happy with that.</p>

<p>I strongly believe that college is four years that are separated from the rest of one’s life, so every day I more or less wake up and say, “Okay, what can I do today that I won’t be able to do ever again in my life?” and I do that. That includes lots and lots of late-night discussions, student events, lectures, cool classes, etc. I can work in a school and volunteer for Habitat in other points in my life. I can also read Middlemarch at other points in my life. I don’t think I’ll be able to be a student in a classroom for the rest of my life, though, so that’s why I want to focus on that aspect now.</p>

<p>I also resist the notion that college is an investment or a prize, because it won’t be for me. My $200,000 education is not going to help me make money, because I’m most likely entering a low-paying job field soon after, if not immediately after graduation. If it were between the dream college and the dream career, the dream career would win.</p>

107

<p>

Because you can’t get into anywhere better. Life’s unfair.</p>

108

<p>applying because of prestige and not knowing anything about the school
applying because your parents told you to and you have no interest in the school
applying because your best friend is</p>

109

<p>Because of prestige.
Because your guidance counselor tells you you need more safety schools.</p>

110

<p>I think there IS a relationship between the quality of your college and future earnings. But, it is difficult to separate the effect of the college per se and the effect of the quality of the student. They go hand in hand. They are mostly inseparable. You would have to compare 1500+ SAT scorers at say Harvard with 1500+ SAT scorers at Podunk. Has that ever been done?</p>

<p>The greatest benefit is when you combine top students with top professors and top educational resources.</p>

<p>When I look at baccalaureate origins of PhDs I see that top schools produce more PhDs. They also produce more doctors, lawyers, MBAs, and so on. If you go on to grad or professional school you are going to earn more money. That is true.</p>

<p>On the subject of parents…its nice when kids are considerate of parents. But, parents are the adults and the adults make sacrifices for their children, not vice versa. What kind of parent would not sacrifice for their child?</p>

111

<p>Yes, a little research has been done and it doesn’t support your point. </p>

<p>"But what if the basis for all this stress and disappointment—the idea that getting into an elite college makes a big difference in life—is wrong? What if it turns out that going to the “highest ranked” school hardly matters at all?</p>

<p>The researchers Alan Krueger and Stacy Berg Dale began investigating this question, and in 1999 produced a study that dropped a bomb on the notion of elite-college attendance as essential to success later in life. Krueger, a Princeton economist, and Dale, affiliated with the Andrew Mellon Foundation, began by comparing students who entered Ivy League and similar schools in 1976 with students who entered less prestigious colleges the same year. They found, for instance, that by 1995 Yale graduates were earning 30 percent more than Tulane graduates, which seemed to support the assumption that attending an elite college smoothes one’s path in life.</p>

<p>But maybe the kids who got into Yale were simply more talented or hardworking than those who got into Tulane. To adjust for this, Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, “moderately selective” school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income “varied little, no matter which type of college they attended.” In other words, the student, not the school, was responsible for the success."</p>

<p>[Who</a> Needs Harvard? - Brookings Institution](<a href=“http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx]Who”>http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx)</p>

112

<p>Interesting article, MD_Mom. But, also found in that article is some evidence that attending an elite school DOES matter. So, the debate continues:</p>

<p>"Some analysts maintain that there are indeed significant advantages to the most selective schools. For instance, a study by Caroline Hoxby, a Harvard economist who has researched college outcomes, suggests that graduates of elite schools do earn more than those of comparable ability who attended other colleges. Hoxby studied male students who entered college in 1982, and adjusted for aptitude, though she used criteria different from those employed by Krueger and Dale. She projected that among students of similar aptitude, those who attended the most selective colleges would earn an average of $2.9 million during their careers; those who attended the next most selective colleges would earn $2.8 million; and those who attended all other colleges would average $2.5 million. This helped convince Hoxby that top applicants should, in fact, lust after the most exclusive possibilities.</p>

<p>“There’s a clear benefit to the top fifty or so colleges,” she says. “Connections made at the top schools matter. It’s not so much that you meet the son of a wealthy banker and his father offers you a job, but that you meet specialists and experts who are on campus for conferences and speeches. The conference networking scene is much better at the elite universities.” Hoxby estimates that about three quarters of the educational benefit a student receives is determined by his or her effort and abilities, and should be more or less the same at any good college. The remaining quarter, she thinks, is determined by the status of the school—higher-status schools have more resources and better networking opportunities, and surround top students with other top students.</p>

<p>“Today there are large numbers of colleges with good faculty, so faculty probably isn’t the explanation for the advantage at the top,” Hoxby says. “Probably there is not much difference between the quality of the faculty at Princeton and at Rutgers. But there’s a lot of difference between the students at those places, and some of every person’s education comes from interaction with other students.” Being in a super-competitive environment may cause a few students to have nervous breakdowns, but many do their best work under pressure, and the contest is keenest at the Gotta-Get-Ins. Hoxby notes that some medium-rated public universities have established internal “honors colleges” to attract top performers who might qualify for the best destinations. “Students at honors colleges in the public universities do okay, but not as well as they would do at the elite schools,” Hoxby argues. The reason, she feels, is that they’re not surrounded by other top-performing students.</p>

<p>There is one group of students that even Krueger and Dale found benefited significantly from attending elite schools: those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Kids from poor families seem to profit from exposure to Amherst or Northwestern much more than kids from well-off families. Why? One possible answer is that they learn sociological cues and customs to which they have not been exposed before."</p>

113

<p>Sure, I think it would be hard to find anyone who would suggest going to Harvard is any kind of disadvantage. How much of an advantage an elite school provides is for any individual student is tougher to pin down. I’m inclined to think that the “best” school for a student isn’t a question easily answered by a formula.</p>

114

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<p>Good point. But read post #104.</p>

115

<p>As far as the money issue goes: Your kid is 18. An adult. It is not ridiculous or cruel that you final let them handle finacial issues on their own. My parents have told me from day one I’d be paying for my own college and I’m actually thankful. If your kid has to pay themselves they are going to put in a heck of a lot more to do well and get scholarships. I’ve earned a full ride to the university of utah because of this. So one earlier mentioned Where have the parents been the last 18 years of this kids life? Shouldn’t they have been saving for the child instead of living above their means. This person also suggested that the parents didn’t love their children. So what about the family that have always worked hard and been honest but only made enough for ends meets? And then cancer or some other medical hardship hit. Are you seriously going to say that just because this family has had a tough time that they don’t love their children? What is wrong with you? My dad lost his job because he refused to partake in illegal activities, now he’s trying to build his business up from the ground. We’ve been living off his retirement and been trying to cover major medical costs. How dare you suggest they don’t love, because they refuse to pamper me like a spoiled brat? Seriously, anyone who sides with that person needs to get a reality check. Not all of us have cushy paychecks to play around with.</p>

<p>By applying to a school I know I was in the top 10% of applicants I don’t have to dig deep into debt, sell drugs, or make my parents sacrifice paying for their medication. I know I’m doing the right thing.</p>

<p>Plus having my parents pay for my education would be embarrassing. I’m going to be an adult soon for craps sake. It’s time to let your children grow up. This is their education let them invest in it so it means something to them.</p>

116

<p>an anecdote of sorts:</p>

<p>A friend of mine graduated high school a couple years ago. He proceeded to Georgetown Walsh School of Foreign Service; basically, the best of the best, while thinking that he wanted to do international relations or something of that sort. An academically brilliant chap, but he, being from the uber-fancy neighbourhood and private school he grew up in, just failed to adjust to the crime-filled and unsafe environment of DC, and the generally political-ness of the students in Walsh in general. I initially thought it strange because G’town was known as being very much his crowd, but he just couldn’t stand the unsafe environment.</p>

<p>After a year transferred to Bowdoin where he is now, and happily so.</p>

<p>guys, FIT is the most important. if you don’t get the right fit, you are going to be acutely unhappy.</p>

<p>I will indeed be acutely unhappy for the next year as I only have the choice of Wesleyan whose surrounding town (Middletown) I acutely dislike, but as I don’t have another choice I basically have to stick it through and try to transfer.</p>

117

<p>“But he just couldn’t stand the unsafe environment.”</p>

<p>Are you serious? Georgetown is one of the cushiest, nicest neighborhoods in the world. Your assertion is laughable. If your friend couldn’t function due to the “crime-filled and unsafe environment” of Georgetown he is going to have some trouble in the rest of his life. Fit is certainly important, but your friend could have probably pushed his comfort zone a little further.</p>

118

<p>i know g’town is a rich neighbourhood. but it’s just that, a neighbourhood. not the entire DC. (which does not have the best of reps for crime).</p>

<p>another thing was the horrid architecture of g’town univ. the concrete Brutalist science building at Wesleyan made me very squeamish, and that was just one building. the chap had to live with basically an entire campus of such architecture.</p>

119

<p>Choosing a college that you and your parents cannot afford and paying for it with a ton of student loans.</p>

120

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<p>I highly disagree with this statement. It is true that if the student pays for his or her own college the person may likely to succeed because the person is more responsible. But what is the point of going to college if the only thing that is rummaging in your mind is how much someone needs to pay for their semester tuition. It is stupid. You are going to college to get a better education and to get a better understanding of who you want to be through education. The world has come to a point where going to school is just to get money and survive in the long run. </p>

<p>I can not fathom the fact that you can pay through college at the same time reach your peak of understanding at the same time. Why do you think in high school students are more likely to fail and not graduate if they end up working in a minimum wage job at some fast food joint. Your mind is not instantaneously change once you go to college. It is the parents responsibility to help pay for college because the college students hold the future of the world. It is better to assure the student’s success by allowing the student to focus on what is important - education. If you are going to retaliate and respond by asking: “how is the student going to learn responsibility by doing this?” If you are in control, comprehending and understanding your material than you are responsible, because education is higher than any materialistic thing in the world IMO.</p>