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<p>Normally I would be sympathetic to the victims of perceived “bullying”, however, error associated M&M is a real problem. The distinction between writing .6 vs. 0.6 may seem trivial, but it may very well save a life some day. I had a 10% markdown on a pchem lab report because of such an error, and I will never do it again.</p>
<p>and that is a good reason to say she’s incompetent and report it to the Dean? How about just telling her to do this.</p>
<p>^^ Who knows why people do the things they do. Perhaps the resident has already been through a bad experience related to this issue and so is now somewhat hypersensitive? We should never lose sight of the fact that the whole process is for the benefit of current and future patients, not the student per se. At the same time I would always insist on a professional demeanor from any teacher in a clinical setting.</p>
<p>Curm,
Very true, "Protect them from all harshness and conflict, and they may not be able to deal. Don’t protect them at all, and risk “injury’ that way…” - this is exactly my experience with my D. She was always told (and followed advice) to seek company of very nice people. She has developed very friendly personality this way and keeps most of her friends since she was 3 y o. It took her an effort and many talks with me (possibly others) to learn to protect her psych and not take “tense, powerful and overconfident” personalities personally. In addition, in her case it could have been conflict of cultures as there are many students with very different backgrounds. however, looking back she herself realized that sooner or later everybody has to deal with personal differences and it was a great learning experience that she was able to take positively. She did have very very hard time though all thru last block, which also happened to be the most difficult academically. Well, I know it is a cliche, but when going get tough, tough get going…and I feel sorry for the rest…</p>
<p>My perception which may be wrong is that the bullying is worse for female students particularly in surgery.</p>
<p>^ Certainly in the incidents I was aware female students were more likely to be slapped or punched by an attending or resident than male students were. The perpetrators probably did not want to get hurt and feared that a male student might respond with even more violence against the abuser despite the trouble the student would get into for hitting someone senior to them. Female students are unlikely to be able to hurt the abuser in a physical confrontation so females can be slapped with little fear of retaliation. My experience has been that residency programs and hospitals are very reluctant to punish a senior resident who they have invested heavily in and do not want to hurt their career prospects no matter how violent, both verbally and physically, they are towards medical students. The only thing bullies have to fear is that, despite the risk of expulsion, a student will respond to his violence with even more violence and the abuser could get hurt. Generally male students are a much more credible threat than female students to carry this out.</p>
<p>Oh my, I hope no one tries to slap my DD, it wouldn’t end pretty!</p>
<p>I think that for the true mistreatment, female students tend to have it easier, actually. Most attendings are male (at least in surgery they are), and I think that they’re a lot less likely to do the things that qualify as actual medical student abuse toward the females. In my opinion, this certainly applies to anything physical and often the verbal stuff.</p>
<p>I do think that it might be true, though, that scutwork is handed out to the women more than the men. I don’t know if it’s the perceived opinion by the more misogynistic that that’s our “role,” or if it’s that we’re more likely to just suck it up and do it even if it’s not our job. And this doesn’t have to come from just residents and doctors. Certainly when I’ve had an older patient who clearly just doesn’t get that I’m a doctor and not a nurse because I’m female, it’s sometimes not worth making the distinction. Plus it gives me an idea of what nurses (male and female) have to put up with on a regular basis, and it gives me a much greater respect for them.</p>
<p>Most attendings are male for sure and the system is a “good old boys network” Doctors who I go to or know on a nonprofessional basis all emphasize that surgery and women do not go well together. That attitude is prevalent during the surgery rotation.</p>
<p>Wow, just wow! I am pretty shocked. I haven’t heard anything really bad from D and her friends - and we’ve spent quite a bit of time with them. D has told me about a few things I would consider as insensitive comments, but never anything I would consider verbally abusive. And physically abusive? Wow! </p>
<p>That being said… She did play a varsity sport and did tell me about some of the shocking things her coaches would say. So maybe that helped prepare her for the real world? I rarely raised my voice with her when she was growing up, but she did hear me raise my voice a time or two with her brother. :D</p>
<p>^^is she a ms3 or 4?</p>
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<p>lol. My thoughts exactly.</p>
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<p>About your DD or mine? 
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<p>Or both!</p>
<p>Hmmm. Mine set the school lifetime record for fouling out while yours played a thuggy sport. Let’s go with both. ;)</p>
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She is a first year resident/intern/PGY1. (never sure which one is most correct) And if anyone tried to slap her, it wouldn’t end pretty, either. ;)</p>
<p>Is there also a lot of sexual harassment in medical school? </p>
<p>Why don’t you guys simply document all cases of bullying or harassment and report it? Is it difficult to do?</p>
<p>@ Somemom, Curmudgeon, hrh19, If someone in a position of power like an attending who is a surgeon or even the senior resident slaps your daughters it may not end pretty at first but in the end I can assure you it will end quietly. The medical heirarchy is even more rigid and authoritarian than the Military. If some male surgeon slaps your daughter what is she going to do about it? She would put herself in serious danger if she escalates a physical confrontation. For one thing, no matter how physically fit your 25 year old daughter is, the hard reality is that even a middle aged man is much stronger and faster than she is and could really hurt her. Secondly, if she attempts to retaliate and the matter goes before a disciplinary committee in the hospital she is the one that is going to be in the most trouble since she also engaged in violence but has no standing or credibility in the organization while the surgeon is probably very influential and feared. </p>
<p>Medical students are at the bottom rung in the caste system. When they are in the OR there will be surgeons, nurses and technicians who are trained and experienced in their jobs and all either look down on (Surgeons) or resent (nurses and technicians) medical students and never miss an opportunity to point out how much they don’t know. The residents resent medical students because they percieve that medical students enjoy some protection from the shocking abuse that attendings inflict on residents.</p>
<p>While I was an intern one night another intern, without supervision, inserted a Dopoff tube in a middle age man. This tube goes through the nose, down through the throat and into the esophogus so that the patient can be fed. Protocol was that whenever you inserted a Dopoff you had to get an x-ray and make sure the tube is in the stomach instead of going down the trachea and into the lungs before any feeding can begin. The other intern did not bother to get an x-ray since he did not feel he could make a mistake like placing the tube in the lungs rather than the stomach and ordered feeding through the tube to begin. Unfortunately, he had inserted the Dopoff in the lung and the patient died two days later from chemical pnumonia. The hospital staff did not tell the family what their loved one had died from and went to great lengths to keep it quiet, allowed the intern to remain in the program and made it clear that anyone who had knowledge of this incident would be terminated if they spoke to anyone about it. Even though this was years ago, I still feel ashamed of myself for not having the courage to say something about this “negligent homicide” that was swept under the rug. The intern should have been supervised by a senior resident who was sleeping and did not want to be disturbed. If they will and can cover up and avoid any repurcussions for killing someone, a cover-up of a slapping would be pretty routine.</p>
<p>I find it disturbing that the behavior that has been discussed here is allowed. I’ve worked for almost 40 years in multiple companies and never seen or heard of the level of abuse mentioned here. The code of ethics in most companies today are such that any inapproriate remark let alone physical abuse would result in immediate termination - something I have seen.</p>
<p>Can anyone posting a personal story on this thread please give some idea as to the year it occurred? I know some of the physicians on here are parents and I imagine things were pretty different 25 years ago compared to today (especially in regards to women) and it’s not fair to compare them without appropriate context.</p>
<p>Medicine was a second career for me after I accumulated enough years to retire on a full pension as a Foreign Service Officer. I enrolled in an allopathic medical school in Philadelphia in the late 1990s. There are four allopathic medical schools and one osteopathic medical school in Philadelphia. There are a large number of teaching hospitals in the area and we would do our rotations in teams made up of medical students from our school as well as with students from the other schools in Philadelphia. From these rotations I learned that there was even more abuse and bullying at some of the other medical schools than at mine. DO students would also do their rotations with us and you should not get the feeling that DO schools are any different. One of the worst cases I personally witnessed was a senior DO resident going into a rage and savagely humiliating a DO student over something trivial.</p>
<p>It has been about ten years since I graduated from medical school and finished my residency and maybe things have changed since then but I doubt it.</p>