The Case for Military Experience

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>This year I begin my sophomore year at an Ivy League school. Before doing so, I must make one of the more important decisions I've faced: whether to continue in the ROTC. If I continue, I will have committed myself to eight years in the armed forces (likely 4 Active Duty, 4 in the Inactive Ready Reserve). If I don't, I face the onus of paying for my three remaining years out of pocket. It's a big deal.</p>

<p>One of my key arguments for continuing has been my impression that military experience will help me gain admission to a top law or business school after my period of service. I'm interested in what members think about this. Will service give me an advantage vis-a-vis a similar student who applies directly from college (I'm not particularly interested in JAG)? Or is it regarded as being on the same plane? Because a military background is relatively rare among Ivy alumni, I would suspect the former.</p>

<p>I should make clear that my decision does not rest exclusively or even primarily on financial or career concerns. However, these do factor into my thinking and I want to ensure I have my facts straight.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, I'm an economics major with something like a 3.9 GPA.</p>

<p>In advance, thanks for your input!</p>

2

<p>I don't want to start a political debate, but I strongly urge you not to involve yourself in the military. It simply isn't worth it.</p>

<p>If you maintain a GPA of 3.90 and a high LSAT you'll sure to get into a top law school.</p>

3

<p>How would you pay for college if you don't continue to participate in the ROTC program? If you would have to take out a significant amount of student loans to continue, then those student loans may make it difficult on a practical level to take well into the six figures worth of student loans in law school. </p>

<p>Also, like any other factor outside of LSAT scores and grades, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much having been in the military will help with law school admissions. That said, anecdotally, I can tell you that former military personnel are frequently found in T14 (and many other) law schools, and they do particularly well in on campus recruiting for law firm jobs.</p>

4

<p>Yes, being in the military is advantageous for getting into a top law school. It's even more advantageous if you are applying to B school. (West Point made the WSJ's feeder list for top business schools a few years back.) </p>

<p>I would urge you to rethink the JAG program though. One of my young neighbors went to Wharton, submatriculated to Penn Law. He was in ROTC and was allowed to defer to attend law school, and got promised JAG. I don't know exactly how it works, but he got assigned to a civilian law firm --a good one in NYC--to do military procurement contracts after IL summer. Part of his active 4 year commitment will be spent at JAG school. And, of course, JAG seldom ends up being in the front lines. </p>

<p>JAG gives you a lot of real trial experience early on, from what I've heard. </p>

<p>Anyway, I'm sure others know more, but there's no reason to rule out the possibility this early.</p>

5

<p>First off lets completely ignore hotelmoscows post because military service is one of the greatest things a person can do in his life for the greater good of this country. It does not matter if you agree with the current war or not.</p>

<p>You should only do ROTC if you feel you can be a good leader. Being an officer is about SERVING the enlisted you need to remember that. </p>

<p>Leadership</a> and Change</p>

<p>Read that article it will tell you how UPenn sends so many people per summer to Marine Corps OCS because they love the skills that are taught. How to lead under pressure is big. Btw, are you doing the Marine Option ROTC? If so feel free to ask any q's I just got back about a month ago from OCS.</p>

6

<p>Would you care to explain how military service contributes to the greater good of the country?</p>

<p>Also your advice of completely ignoring another person based on conflicting opinions is very enlightened and progressive. I'm sure that kind of mentality will serve you well in life.</p>

7

<p>If you go to T14 and defer your student loans, you will be able to the pay them off in a few year with a typical t14 salary.</p>

<p>Alos look into JAG as someone said, but you need to pass the Bar Exam as well since you DON'T have to be Bar certified to do JAG.</p>

8

<p>If you go to a T14 with a good loan forgiveness program and spend 4 years in the military, you'll only have to pay a percentage of your salary during those 4years.</p>

9

<p>"Would you care to explain how military service contributes to the greater good of the country?"</p>

<p>Churchill's saying comes to mind. "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
...and those who would do us harm know this.</p>

10

<p>"Also your advice of completely ignoring another person based on conflicting opinions is very enlightened and progressive. I'm sure that kind of mentality will serve you well in life."</p>

<p>You know what, your right. Why would I insult all those men and women who died protecting your freedoms by trying to silence you. Instead I should let you continue to talk ill about people who are giving you that very right to do so. </p>

<p>"I don't want to start a political debate, but "</p>

<p>Are ya sure that wasn't your intention?! If you think this is a partisan issue then you have your head further in a dark place than I could even imagine.</p>

<p>I love that quote raimius.</p>

11

<p>"You know what, your right. Why would I insult all those men and women who died protecting your freedoms by trying to silence you. Instead I should let you continue to talk ill about people who are giving you that very right to do so."</p>

<p>You honestly don't see your ridiculous logic here? And the people in the military today are not defending my freedoms. Stop babbling your nationalistic nonsense and see what is going on in the world today.</p>

12

<p>Going after those who wish to see their religious views forced upon all of us doesn't qualify as defending your freedoms.</p>

<p>Aircraft sitting on alert to ensure that an attack like 9/11 won't happen again don't do anything to protect you.</p>

<p>People sitting 24 hour shifts at nuclear missile stations don't deter our potential enemies.</p>

<p>I guess I should quit, seeing as my future career in being our nations sword and shield is no longer required. You are right, the world is perfectly safe from intrusions on liberty! /sarcasm</p>

<p>As to the original topic:
I don't know how much simply being in the military will help your admissions. Performing well would likely boost your chances. The military may pay for advanced degrees, if you are willing to commit to a longer term of service.</p>

13

<p>Hotelmoscow, watch your tone. There are probably people in the military who have contributed more to this country than you could ever imagine. West Point and the Naval Academy have over 100 Rhodes Scholars combined if that says anything about the average level of intelligence of the officers graduating from the Academies, let alone where the OP is a current student at. </p>

<p>To the original poster, let me explain this to you from someone who will be serving in an officer capacity right along side you in two years. People who are blinded by the military's influence in the law and business world may be trying to steer you in the wrong direction.</p>

<p>You are in a very blessed position. You go to an Ivy League school and will have a commission as an officer. People like Hotelmoscow don't realize how helpful your military career could be to going to law school. First, your undergraduate school speaks for itself, but when you consider that USMA and USNA were both in the top 40 feeders for elite business and law programs, you should be set with where you are.</p>

<p>The military offers a great way to pay for your education as when you finish, your branch of service will look to you to use the education they paid for as a statesman and someone who upholds a higher standard than your average person who went to law school. Take a look at the large component of military officers that exist at the O-3 level who are currently in top graduate schools across the country. Easy access to graduate education exists for all of us who are willing to stay in past our initial obligations.</p>

<p>Moscowhotel, you overtly display disapproval in the military, but you'd almost be compelled to follow anyone in the civilian world who went to the Naval Academy, West Point, or who earned a commission as an officer from an Ivy League school. I don't see how you wouldn't have respect for that person knowing that he/she is probably more equipped to handle problems, stress, management issues, or anything else.</p>

<p>Also, when applying to grad schools, many programs inflate GPA's of those who went to military academies or have commissions from other well known schools with ROTC units FYI. With a commission from an IVY, you could write your ticket into most any law/grad/business school. Do some research before you listen to people who are a little out of the loop.</p>

14

<p>The problem with your logic is that you're looking at the most elite members of the military and using them as the basis to judge the entire group. </p>

<p>And on the matter of person freedoms, the people within this country have done far more damage to our liberties than people on the outside.</p>

15

<p>"The problem with your logic is that..."</p>

<p>hotelmoscow, the problem with your logic is that you presuppose that other people outside the military actually care about your freedom of speech. In other words, we get it: you don't like the military, and you don't believe in "nationalistic nonsense". Most of us, frankly, do not care. Other people do like the military and being patriotic; and they have the right to believe in these institutions, however ludicrous such a stance may be for you. So, please respect that. This is not a political forum per se, if you want to debate the finer points of political theory go to Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship... perhaps a service academy grad will teach you something there, if you are willing to learn; perhaps you'll spare him or her the "shame" of continuing in the military as you seem to view it, if they are willing to be persuaded by you. And, well, if you can't get that Rhodes Scholarship, well perhaps that's an indication that you shouldn't seek to be professorial and simply respect other people's views.</p>

16

<p>Sorry, but to return to the OP's original question...</p>

<p>I would like to tack on my own. Which would be more beneficial: Doing ROTC as an undergrad, getting an educational deferment (which is a maybe for anyone) and doing law school, and then entering JAG, OR; Doing undergrad, then law school, then entering JAG...</p>

<p>Anyone?</p>

17

<p>
[quote]

I don't want to start a political debate, but I strongly urge you not to involve yourself in the military. It simply isn't worth it.

[/quote]

How would you know? Have you served in the military to make the determination whether it is worth it or not?</p>

<p>I'm 21 and I'm an OCS candidate for the NJ Army National Guard with an expected commissioning date of August 09. The experience has been great and I've learned so much that you could not possibly learn in the civilian world. I do not regret my decision to join the military at all and always wonder why had I not joined sooner. It has made me a better person, student, and human being in ways that simply can't be communicated through a post on an internet forum. It's contributed greatly to my personal development.</p>

<p>As for the benefits, it is without comparison. I'm a 3rd year/1st professional year student at Rutgers Pharmacy. A perk for being part of the NJ ARNG is the Tuition Waiver law. I am getting a PharmD for free. If you work 72 hours a week after graduation (retail and hospital pharmacist) you will have the potential to make 200k/year. What other opportunity in the world would amount to 200k/year, zero debt, and military/government benefits? This wouldn't have been possible for me without being a member of the military. I also might go for a law degree, PhD, or a MS in Engineering on top of a PharmD which would also be free. My military commitment/service has given me a distinct and insurmountable financial jump start relative to my peers.</p>

<p>Now, I'll be honest and I'm not a "gun-ho patriot". I see many faults with our government, but military service isn't about making a political statement. It's about challenging yourself to find out what you're made of. It teaches you that determination, perseverance, and dedication go a very long way. It will teach you more about leadership than any private sector position you can find as a 20-30 year old. You also form friendships that last a lifetime. Whenever I see another service member, I can feel an automatic bond that we share. We tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt and military service is one of the best ways to develop connections and networks for the future.</p>

<p>*Also don't forget the "social" benefits ;) You come from a great school and have the potential to be a high-income earning male who also a commissioned officer. The chicks will "dig ya" :). </p>

<p>Just don't forget to give hotelmoscow's gf a wink when you see them at some liberal anti-war protest because she'll know deep down inside her bf is a pussy.</p>

18

<p>^ TI, to an extent, TCR</p>

<p>It is a significant boost when it comes to law school admissions (people complain all the time how ex-military are dumber than AA candidates) (and otherwise i would have had no chance in hell getting into a T10 school) as well as getting firm jobs (you think you can think of anything better to talk about for 4 hours?). If you do JAG, which in and of itself can be rewarding, there would be less boost because (1) you've already gotten into law schools. Dont know how it will affect the summer associateship.</p>

<p>however, it likely seems that you need very little help in the way of "getting in", etc. it comes down to what benefits it's gonna do for you. money is not a big deal. Get loans, go to law school, defer, graduate with $350k in loans, who cares. Straight money-wise, the opportunity cost of going to the military is too great. </p>

<p>and you shouldn't really go into it if you're unsure. like you say, it's a big commitment, and if you're not the right type, it might do a real number on you.</p>

<p>and i'm 100% with polo here. Military ain't about politics. I don't know what kind of fairy land other people live in, but if you walk up to a bully in an unsupervised schoolyard with daisies in your hair while acting like a total ******bag, you're bound to get punched in the face. if you want to take that punch, be my guest. but in the past, we haven't reacted too kindly to the punch. JAGs don't make decisions. PV-2s don't give orders to bomb the hell out of palestinians. </p>

<p>and if youre at least ambivalent about these things, it's not a big deal. worst case, you're stuck in a crappy job for 4 years and have your soul sapped out of you. kinda like banking, but with less bottles and lesser models. but if you go into it being gung-ho fairy, looking only to get ahead in life, you are not gonna enjoy it, dude. </p>

<p>but really, it cant be about financial/career concerns. the opportunity costs for that, both in terms of time and money, are too great.</p>

19

<p>and as for "And on the matter of person freedoms, the people within this country have done far more damage to our liberties than people on the outside."</p>

<p>ok, i'm pretty much not a big fan of pro-america nationalistic patriotism, USA, USA, we're no. 1 kinda stuff.</p>

<p>and am about as progressively socialist as they come</p>

<p>but seriously. quotes like that are why i hate talking politics, why i hate other liberals, especially in a group, especially when younger than 30, why I almost voted for Obama just to shut these people up.</p>

<p>seriously. have you stepped a foot outside this country? ever? and i'm talking bout industrialized, modern democratic nations (albeit not wealthy per se), too</p>

<p>you need to get your collective heads out of "hate america, apply ED to sarah lawrence, hate bush, hate republican, drink more coffee at ubercapitalistic starbucks, hate red states, wear birkenstocks to the gym, hate establishment, wear emo glasses and plaid pants, hate military hate capitalism" asses. i'm all about hating if you know what you're hating and what you're liking. but you dont.</p>