"The Chosen:The Hidden History of Admission/Exclusion @ Harvard, Yale, and Princeton"

College Search & Selection
1

<p>[Sorry ahead of time for an upcoming, dumb question.]</p>

<p>Has anyone read this book? I was at BN today (buying my third season of House MD :) ) when I saw this out of the corner of my eye; after reading the first few chapters, I started feeling..nauseous at what used to be the "Big Three." </p>

<p>As naive as this might sound, I can't help but wonder: because these schools consists of children of legacies who attended during those times, do any sort of sentiments (exclusion, segregation) still exist in parts of the institution? I know that many, many things have changed, but in terms of student groups or small minority sections--would you say they completely changed 180 degrees, or that there are some residual effects?</p>

<p>Any thoughts on the book from those who've read it? I'm considering purchasing it.</p>

2

<p>My sister went to Yale.
I'm going to Columbia.
We are by no means, well-off. (chinese, first generation immigrants).</p>

<p>However WITH THAT SAID... it's also not true that all relics of that area are gone. If you step onto the Harvard, and moreso Princeton campus, there is an undeniable aura of elitism. Not in the sense that "well, these kids are the smartest of the smartest", but moreso in the sense that you can tell immediately that 25-30% of the kids that get in were significantly helped either through legacies or extreme wealth. </p>

<p>There's also a bit of an "ol'-boys" club (white, affluent) feel on the yale campus due to all the secret societies and such. But what's most revealing is that at the Ivies, usually ~50% receive some form of financial aid.</p>

<p>Think about what this is saying. The other FIFTY-PERCENT is paying $50,000 after-tax dollars a year x 4 = $200,000 for college without batting an eye. If you can do that, you are usually pretty well off. </p>

<p>Yea and it is pretty sad taht HYP just 60 years ago had an 80% admit rate and discriminated on the basis of race, religion, and in the case of Harvard, HEIGHT. (yes, how tall you were mattered).</p>

3

<p>Will HYP never get rid of the Final clubs/secret societies/eating clubs? I understand that these are much integrated into the colleges' tradition, and that they have also slightly "changed" in terms of how prevalent they are to the student body; but will these elements always exist...forever?</p>

4

<p>Oh and yes, I did read about the height @ H. I wonder what allowed such a quick revolution from the traditional ways to innovation--admittance of women? Some student revolt? Public criticism?</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Will HYP never get rid of the Final clubs/secret societies/eating clubs? I understand that these are much integrated into the colleges' tradition, and that they have also slightly "changed" in terms of how prevalent they are to the student body; but will these elements always exist...forever?

[/quote]

They are unlikely to go away in the foreseeable future. Finals clubs, secret societies, and eating clubs are not university-run institutions. They are independent student organizations with entirely independent funding (except in the case of eating clubs, which do receive some money from Princeton in the form of financial aid money, as financial aid now covers the cost of eating clubs). As such, the universities could not, even if they wanted to, abolish these organizations. But, it's important to remember that all three are becoming less elitist (though admittedly that's not saying much). Any Princeton student can join an eating club, as most now choose members by lottery, while Yale's secret societies (and I assume finals clubs at Harvard as well) do choose at least some of their members for reasons other than family connections. And secret societies are hardly a dominant part of campus life at Yale (I won't comment on finals clubs since I have no personal experience), as their membership comprises about 1/5 of seniors, meaning that only 5% (1/5 *1/4) of Yalies are in a secret society, and even fewer are in the elite secret societies like Skull and Bones. Basically, except for tap night, the average Yale student doesn't see any sign of the existence of the societies beyond the physical buildings ("tombs") in which they are based.</p>

6

<p>Some of the policies that book will describe still happen, like legacy preference.</p>

<p>But now asians, and not jews, are the group (intentionally or unintentionally) let outside the gates.</p>

<p>Also: the 50% who are not on financial aid are not paying 50k a year without batting an eye. A huge chunk of them will not have qualified for finaid, but are still taking out loans in order to pay.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
But now asians, and not jews, are the group (intentionally or unintentionally) let outside the gates.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Intentionally? How so? It seems like Asian students are always getting screwed.</p>

8

<p>"Intentionally? How so? It seems like Asian students are always getting screwed."</p>

<p>-seriously...</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
As naive as this might sound, I can't help but wonder: because these schools consists of children of legacies who attended during those times, do any sort of sentiments (exclusion, segregation) still exist in parts of the institution?

[/quote]

Actually the legacy population is rather small compared to the overall size of the Classes, so they just add to the diversity of the College Experience.
Here's some links regarding Legacy "Preference", most note that Legacy is only a tip factor, for otherwise qualified candidates.
Brown Daily Herald: Fourth-generation student arrives at time when legacy admissions are under fire <a href="http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/paper472/news/2004/07/16/CampusNews/FourthGeneration.Student.Arrives.At.Time.When.Legacy.Admissions.Are.Under.Fire-707295.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/paper472/news/2004/07/16/CampusNews/FourthGeneration.Student.Arrives.At.Time.When.Legacy.Admissions.Are.Under.Fire-707295.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yale Daily News: Legacies Maintain Edge <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/13301%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/13301&lt;/a>
Yale Alumni Magazine: Why Yale Favors its' own
<a href="http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton Alumni Weekly
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW04-05/02-1006/moment.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/02-1006/moment.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton Profile <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/06/08.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/06/08.htm&lt;/a>
1790 Accepted, 200 Legacy 11% of Accepted students in 2010</p>

<p>Dartmouth
[quote]
Of the admitted students, 134 are legacies, down from 148 in the Class of 2010. Furstenberg stated that the legacy connection is an advantage to a student’s application, though it is only one contributing factor.

[/quote]

2,165 Accepted 134 Legacy 6.2% of Accepted students for class of 2011
<a href="http://thedartmouth.com/2007/03/30/news/acceptance/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://thedartmouth.com/2007/03/30/news/acceptance/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell Alumni News: (note: Cornell counts Grand Parents, Great Grandparents etc., not just parents to Determine Legacy)<br>
Fall 2004 491 Legacies of 3657 Students in Class 13.4% of Class
<a href="http://cornellalumnimagazine.com/Archive/2005julaug/pdfs/JA05Legacies.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cornellalumnimagazine.com/Archive/2005julaug/pdfs/JA05Legacies.pdf&lt;/a>
Fall 2006 513 Legacies of 3670 Students in Class 14% of Class
<a href="http://cornellalumnimagazine.com/Currentissue/pdfs/legacies.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cornellalumnimagazine.com/Currentissue/pdfs/legacies.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>University Of Pennsylvania <a href="http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/applying/profile.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/applying/profile.php&lt;/a>
Sons and Daughters of Alumni
Applicants..Admitted........Number Enrolled...Percent of Class
1,291.........437 (34%)............374...................15%</p>

<p>Harvard Crimson <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=514394%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=514394&lt;/a>
Look Who’s Getting a Leg Up from Legacy

[quote]
I’m not the stereotypical beneficiary of legacy admissions, though. My parents didn’t even go here.</p>

<p>Legacies make up 10 to 15 percent of the student body at most Ivy League schools, according to Daniel L. Golden ’78, the Pulitzer Prize-winning education reporter for the Wall Street Journal and author of “The Price of Admission: How America’s Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges—and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates.”</p>

<p>I fall into the other 85 to 90 percent of Ivy undergrads. Legacy preference didn’t help me in the admissions process—but it’s been a boon for me ever since.</p>

<p>Golden insists that, “for most alumni, giving to their alma mater doesn’t hinge on whether it accepts their children; it stems from other motives, such as gratitude for their own education or desire to promote research or teaching in an overlooked field.” That’s a sweet thought—but it’s utterly unsupported by evidence. Eschewing legacy preference has left Caltech with an alumni giving rate that’s 15 percent below Harvard’s and 29 percent lower than Princeton’s, according to 2004-2005 data. Cooper Union’s alumni giving rate is 11 percent below Harvard’s, and Berea’s is 21 percent below, by one calcuation. If your alma mater declines to give your children an admissions break, the data suggests that you are indeed less likely to donate.

[/quote]
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<p>Columbia University <a href="http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/faq/admissions.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/faq/admissions.php&lt;/a>

[quote]
Does Columbia give preference in the admission process to applicants whose parents attended Columbia?
We are always pleased to receive applications from students whose family members have graduated from Columbia. When an applicant is extremely competitive and compares favorably with other similarly talented candidates, being the daughter or son of a Columbia University graduate (from any Columbia school or college) may be a slight advantage in the admission process. This advantage may especially apply for “legacy” candidates.</p>

<p>Please note: applicants are considered to be “legacies” of Columbia only if they are the children of Columbia College or the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science graduates.

[/quote]
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