Well, AP class quality at many schools are often brought into question and CCs can be measured individually. I know more than one kid at a public urban school that ended up hiring a tutor to muddle through an AP test because their class was junk. Many schools including top ivy allow a more holistic application process that can be beneficial for many kids in out of the box programs or homeschooling. It’s pretty easy to find out the standing of any particular CC program or the quality of high schools which also vary widely. It’s the very specific requirement I have issue when not look at a kid’s application as a whole. Any school can reject you for any reason, which is fine. My kid is already done/doing plenty of testing and has a rich application.
It’s great your kid had a flexible schedule when you homeschooled. For a kid doing everything through their house having some sort of requirement makes more sense. I don’t get the feeling there are many if any kids getting into ivies on mommy grades alone.
I have had 5 kids graduate from our homeschool after homeschooling k-12, and I wouldn’t make some of the definitive statements made about homeschooling or the homeschooling college application process made in this thread. I have been homeschooling for almost 25 yrs and across multiple states and I can’t stereotype homeschoolers into 2 main categories. I have encountered way too many different types of educational styles to even begin to pigeon hole homeschoolers so narrowly. The same goes for the college application process. There are as many application processes as there are colleges to apply to. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.
FWIW, not all homeschoolers DE through CCs. My kids who have actively pursued DE have typically done so through our local 4 yr universities precisely bc of the quality of our CCs. (Some states have great CCs, so poor quality is another stereotype.) The assumption should not be that DE is automatically related to poor quality CC enrollment.
I personally don’t have a problem with asking for 2 subject tests. Math, English lit, and foreign lang tests are easy to take with no prep. More than 2 I personally think is excessive and my kids won’t pursue applications at schools that require more. (Ironically, many of the highest ranked schools don’t require any and then you have schools like URichmond that wants something like 4 or 5.)
@MusakParent May I present an alternative perspective? My kids have been awarded numerous scholarships and admitted to competitive academic programs without having many outsourced classes. My current college freshman only had 1 outsourced class (a foreign language) plus a planned spring semester (at the time of application, but completed in May of her sr yr) DE course. Her entire transcript of “mommy grades” was not questioned. Neither have any of her older siblings faced issues with their homeschooled at home courses. DD was actually awarded many top competitive scholarship (and did not receive a single rejection).
@Mom2aphysicsgeek I have zero problem with mommy grades. That tends to be a phrase I heard thrown around by non-homeschoolers, so I shouldn’t have used it myself but I was responding to the other poster. My kid does have some mom made grades and will be reporting some to colleges!
But like you said, your kid had some subject tests as outside verification. My kid is in a very high quality DE program, has some other accredited grades, and has a couple ACT scores. I think schools have more than enough to go on with that info without me sending more money to the college board. And again, we will likely not be applying to most of these programs. It’s my kid’s decision ultimately. I have heard a couple stories about people who managed to bypass a homeschooling specific requirement by having a particularly strong and well supported application in other ways so if my kid really wants to throw in an app somewhere without jumping that hoop, I’d be fine with it.
I agree with you 100% that homeschoolers cannot be easily categorized. The majority I know personally have a good sense of their own kids strengths and weaknesses and are not abusing their ability to write a transcript to get their kids into programs they aren’t actually qualified for. An ACT/SAT score alone can be a good indicator along with some other evidence of rigor. Many homeschoolers educting to a high level have a much more personalized and detailed transcript/course description document than would come out of a kid in a B&M school and I think schools can pretty easily assess that. I don’t think fraud is at all commonplace in homeschoolers applying to colleges.
I’ll agree fraud likely is not an issue – more of an overestimation of the kids’ abilities in some (not all) families who do Mom grades. I repeat my sentiment of understanding why numerous SAT2 scores just for homeschoolers would be asked…of homeschoolers without much other outside verification. However, for homeschoolers with numerous AP exam scores, grades from accredited programs like CTY, grades from colleges, etc. etc., why would the multiple SAT2 scores be needed? Feels a bit ridiculous. My dd will take the extra tests and jump through the hoops, since she feels if she can do extremely well on those exams then that only makes her a stronger applicant anyway.
@JanieWalker Most universities disagree with “understanding why numerous SAT2 scores just for homeschoolers [being] asked for.” Most don’t ask for them. As I stated several posts back, by far most universities only want a transcript and the regular SAT or ACT. By far, the minority want a transcript, course descriptions, and subject tests.
I have never had a child take more than 2 subject tests. My kids have varied between 0 outsourced courses to almost all math and science (and only those subjects) b/c he entered high school at a very high level and graduated high school with AP science/BC credit plus 5 additional cal+ physics credits and 4 additional math credits. We have never DE’ed for a humanities course. But, by far, the vast majority of my kids courses are done at home and with grades assigned by me. Outsourcing for me is a last resort. Anything we can do at home, we do.
Our classes are typically non-traditional and interest-led and we loved every minute of them. Very little hoop jumping involved.
@MusakParent I didn’t say MY kid had such an easy schedule. We did an online school (included several AP), 4-yr college courses, etc. We have done public, private, and home/online school (in 3 states) so I have some perspective on this. Grading systems vary significantly too - much easier to get A’s at some schools than others. You’re right, quality of AP varies immensely also, but there is a test that measures proficiency at the end of the course.
A couple of one-hour Subject Tests is not a big deal. And I stick by homeschoolers having flexibility, regardless of how much they have on their plate. Because THEY manage their schedules, not a brick/mortar school where kids are held captive from 7:30-2:45 (our public school offers no dual enrollment or online courses) and don’t get home until 6:00 after a sport. My son did a ton during his homeschool year…but it was the flexibility that allowed him to finish 3 AP, 2 college courses (semester each), 6 other online courses (full year), do a year-around club sport (3hr practice/day), apply to boarding schools (and travel for interviews), and do competitions, clubs, volunteer work, etc. Studying for a couple Subject Exams would have been no big deal and I support them gathering objective data on the candidates.
Being completely blunt…1 yr via an online school is really just dipping your baby toe into the water and pretty far removed from homeschooling at home through high school. Like I said above…after 25 yr of homeschooling 8 kids, 5 of them all of the way through high school and a 6th in 10th grade, I wouldn’t make such sweeping generalized statements about “homeschooling.” My homeschool…I will make any statements with aplomb…homeschooling in other homes, not so much.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek I did not write that “most universities” require multiple SAT2s. I know not all do - though I don’t know how many don’t, whether it’s many or most or half, etc., because I haven’t looked at the admissions requirements for every college in the nation. What I do know is that some colleges do require more testing and/or material from homeschooled kids than they require from traditionally schooled kids. We also see that many colleges require an interview, when for other kids interviews are optional (not that we mind, as I think an interview is a beneficial thing). My comments are specific to those colleges which do require more from homeschoolers than other applicants.
@sunnyschool I don’t have a problem with gathering objective data either, which is why my kid is taking so many AP courses (which she actually really enjoys). She’ll take classes at a 4-year college when she gets to 11th grade. Throwing on more testing in the form of 2+ SAT2s seems kind of silly when there will already be so much outside verification of her skill level. It would make more sense if the colleges that have more requirements for homeschooled kids only had those requirements when the kid had no other standardized test scores or grades from accredited institutions. But whatever, we will provide the extra things and jump through the hoops because as homeschoolers, that’s part of what I feel we signed on to do when it comes to college admissions at some of these schools.
Also – Your point about flexibility is a good one. My kids would not be able to do everything they do without the flexibility of their schedules.
Most don’t. It is only a very small percentage that do. I can’t link blog posts, but prepscholars blogpost on “Complete List: Colleges That Require SAT Subject Tests” lists 6 requiring subject tests from homeschoolers. There are definitely more, but in the scheme of the college apps, a tiny percentage.
I have gone through this process multiple times. It is nowhere even close to 10% let alone 50%.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek Looks like we are investigating the “tiny percentage” - though again, there are hundreds (thousands?) of colleges in the nation so only someone who has looked at every single admissions criteria from every single college would know the real percentage. Though of course it doesn’t really matter what percentage of colleges have no extra requirements when the colleges your kid is interested in does have extra requirements.
Also, @sunnyschool, as a mom who has homeschooled for 15 years in two different states (my kids have never gone to a b&m school), I think you can definitely get a sense of homeschooling by doing one year of online courses during the high school years at home. I did untraditional stuff at home with my kids when they were in elementary school and then started outsourcing when they got to middle school since my two are both advanced in various subjects. One year of online schooling from home and juggling the extracurriculars etc. is more than just sticking a baby toe in the water, IMO. Please continue to share your perspective.
@janiewalker What hoops did your older student(s) jump through for college admissions? What did those universities/colleges specifically require from homeschoolers and no other students? Have their policies changed at all? The experiences we encounter with our older children can influence how we view/see the process with our younger children. But, for homeschoolers, the college application process can shift from yr to yr. For example, in 2013 Georgia Tech required 4 subject tests from homeschoolers. In 2014 they didn’t require any. (My youngest son applied in 2014, so I know that is the yr the policy changed.) I have not seen a tightening trend for homeschoolers.
It is very difficult to discuss college applications for homeschoolers in sweeping generalizations. Discussing homeschooling methodologies, even more so. Hence, the baby toe comment…the student was in 10th grade. The student didn’t graduate from a homeschool but attended a boarding school for 11th/12th. I personally find this comment, “I’m on several homeschooling forums as my son did virtual school for a year. Well - most of these parents (of HS kids on these forums) are not equipped to homeschool. The ones that are, usually have at minimum a college degree and ensure the child learning at / above their level - i.e., They are using options like dual enrollment, AP courses, testing etc to prove the worth of the home education program,” a very limited view on the dynamics and complexities of the homeschooling community at large. There are as many types of homeschoolers as there are homeschooling families. FWIW…I am college educated, but I certainly do not have DE and APs as a goal for our homeschool, nor do I see them as required for proof for the worth of our homeschool. So, I do not fit neatly into either of her 2 main categories…college educated and proving my homeschool’s worth or “another group of parents that avoids anything challenging, and whines when their homeschooled high schooler starts to rebel and doesn’t want to learn anything. There seems to be a high correlation in this group with lower education of the parents (who really cannot teach HS subjects like Algebra or Biology). Their kids sometimes beg to go back to public school, but the parent won’t let them because they are afraid of the environment there.”
Schools are trying to build a class from kids from all different types of schools and, in their experiences, they need to have some standardized requirements. They are just grouping all homeschoolers into the same requirements. They may also require 2 (or more) SAT IIs from international students even though a student from England may have had an entirely different experience than one from Hong Kong. A big urban hs from NYC might be more rigorous than one from Dallas, but the admissions officers can usually figure out from APs, standardizes tests, curriculum, etc how two kids compare. Much harder to do with two homeschooled kids without the standardized tests and the more of them (including 2 SAT IIs) the better.
Can you imagine the requirements if they let everyone submit just what they wanted? “Well, if you were homeschooled and took at least 4 classes from an outside source like community college or vitual school, then you may submit only one SAT II score but it has to be in a subject that you did not take in community college, that you were taught by a parent. If that parent has a certified teaching degree that is not more than 5 years out of date, this requirement is waived for you. If you expect to get credit or advance standing in this subject, you must submit the AP score…” This could go on and on.
@twoinanddone I understand the whole building-the-community thing. And I do get the need for standardized scores to better compare applicants from different backgrounds. I see your point about the extremely long “if you’ve had this many APs then you only need one SAT2” message on college admissions websites…though I wish they would try regardless for the sheer entertainment value of reading it, lol.
@JanieWalker
"@sunnyschool I don’t have a problem with gathering objective data either, which is why my kid is taking so many AP courses (which she actually really enjoys). She’ll take classes at a 4-year college when she gets to 11th grade. Throwing on more testing in the form of 2+ SAT2s seems kind of silly when there will already be so much outside verification of her skill level. It would make more sense if the colleges that have more requirements for homeschooled kids only had those requirements when the kid had no other standardized test scores or grades from accredited institutions. But whatever, we will provide the extra things and jump through the hoops because as homeschoolers, that’s part of what I feel we signed on to do when it comes to college admissions at some of these schools.
Also – Your point about flexibility is a good one. My kids would not be able to do everything they do without the flexibility of their schedules."
Thank you. My perspective comes from experiencing traditional public school, private/boarding school, and homeschooling. Ironically, my kid is a lot like @Mom2aphysicsgeek 's son; and during his year at home he also took college physics and statistics (at a good 4-yr college). Of course, @Mom2aphysicsgeek needs to tell me that our experience wasn’t good enough to be meaningful.
Remember that with homeschooled kids you also get to avoid all the standardized testing in public schools, so this is also nice. You can instead focus on tests that matter for college admission.
I think that the AP’s and SAT Subject Tests get repetitive in some subjects. IMO, in some subjects, submitting one or the other should suffice. But I don’t make the rules. I find the SAT Subject Tests most annoying for the timing - i.e., hard to fit them in amongst all the other testing and school work. But again, with homeschool you can take them anytime the student is ready…but in B&M schools they’re best taken in June after the content is covered.
So @Mom2aphysicsgeek , you think I’m lying that I read that on Facebook groups for homeschoolers? Sorry, hate to tell you but about 80% of the posts on these pages are from the group that is just looking to avoid High school, but also let their snowflakes avoid any difficult subject matter. Daily posts like this: “My student hates math. Does she really need Algebra? I don’t understand Algebra either so I can’t teach it. What’s the easiest online curriculum for Algebra 1?” Then later you see the same person posting that their student “Has all A’s” on their report card.
There’s a tone in your posts that you are always right, and you know more than everyone. Yes, your kids have done great and you are a model homeschool parent. And by the way, I’ve seen you denounce many homeschoolers programs on CC.
@sunnyschool I agree with your overall points regarding flexibility - I will say though that some homeschooled kids take yearly standardized tests as a condition of being allowed to continue homeschooling, and some are still bound by a traditional b&m schedule when it comes to taking SAT2 exams. My kids will take the SAT2s after the corresponding AP class (which always runs Sept-May), so they will do either the May or June dates…both of which conflict with monthly regional sports tournaments, but what can ya do. Your general point is still valid IMO, I’m just being nitpicky.
^^ Good point, and I know some states require either showing a portfolio of work or standardized test scores.
I have the same frustration about fitting in these SAT2 Subject Tests, for both my boarding school student (the “one year homeschooler-but-not-true-homeschooler-since-he-did-online-school”) and my public HS student.
I am not suggesting that you are lying. I am stating that reading things online and experiencing things first hand over many yrs are 2 different POV. I have known homeschool families for almost 25 yrs and they are not so easily categorized. Being actively involved for 1 yr in a virtual school is not the same as being involved long-term and being actively involved in the homeschooling community in person with long term relationships. Neither did I ever say that you were not a true homeschooler bc he did online school. I said your perspective is like dipping a baby toe in the water bc it is limited and not the same as having homeschooled all the way way through high school with having gone through the process of homeschooling to college with college apps at the end.
How we perceive things impacts how we post and the experiences we share. I do believe that your categorizing homeschoolers into just 2 categories and the terminology you used is not representative of many homeschoolers, including me b/c I don’t fit into either of your categories. It is really that simple. I don’t even fit into a single category b/c I have 8 kids and have taken a very different approach with every single one of them. Plenty of homeschoolers not so easily pigeonholed.
FWIW, back to the original idea of this thread, most homeschoolers will be admitted to most avg colleges with nothing more than their homeschool transcript and either the ACT or SAT. Some states have different laws (CA and a-g requirements, NY universities often require the GED). Knowing your state laws will make a difference in how you approach things. But, no, APs, subject tests, DE, course descriptions, LOR, counselor letters, school profiles, etc are not going to be required in most avg situations. More competitive schools will want the majority of the latter, but APs, subject tests, and DE are also going to be institution dependent and there is no universal single answer.
There are 50 states, numerous reasons to homeschool, parents with kids that homeschool and kids that don’t under same roof, many homeschooling approaches, and many other situations. I don’t think anyone knows everything, which is why this is a message board for different people to post different perspectives. @Mom2aphysicsgeek Sorry you got so annoyed with my categories; I am equally annoyed with your “toe” comment, especially since I complimented your approach. I have been reading the facebook pages for several years so that is where I am getting that perspective. Oh and I forgot to mention that many of those posters won’t buy curriculum materials - they want everything free or very low cost. Many parents are not really equipped to homeschool - it is more about pulling their kids out of school than it is about actually schooling. Not that I totally blame them (back to many reasons for homeschooling), but many are not equipped for schooling at home.
That is my observation. It does not apply to all homeschoolers, but it does probably drive the rationale for colleges asking for more test scores to ensure the students are at a certain level. And like a poster above said, they require X and Y from all homeschoolers, because having different systems depending on different types of homeschooling is probably to complex to implement.
@sunnyschool maybe you should look for some higher quality homeschool groups to follow, if "80% of the posts on these pages are from the group that is just looking to avoid High school, but also let their snowflakes avoid any difficult subject matter. " I’m on lots of homeschooling forums, e-lists, and FB groups, where 0% of the posts are the type you describe. Why would you even follow pages where 80% of the posters are like that???
The homeschoolers I interact with, IRL and in multiple online groups (some of which are pretty huge), take homeschooling seriously and are doing their best to provide their kids with an excellent education. Many groups post annual lists of all the colleges that members’ kids have been accepted to, ranging from local state uni’s to elite LACs and Ivies. I’ve homeschooled two kids, full time, for 12 years, and my oldest has been accepted to his first choice school (ranked 10th in his major and 1st in his sport), with a full tuition scholarship, and he turned down an Ivy and other elite schools. He did not do any APs or SAT2s, although he did have very high ACT scores and high scores/honors on some other national tests. He had 2 DE classes and another half-dozen classes from outside providers that were able to write glowing recommendations for him. All of the colleges we spoke to were eager for homeschooled applicants, and none of them seemed to have much experience with the type of slackers that you claim are “80%” of the homeschoolers you know of.