What was it Lincoln said (and I am paraphrasing but pretty close)? “If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, if I could save the Union by freeing no slaves I would do it. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves but not all of them, I would do that too.”
At the beginning of the war, the North’s reasons for the war were Union. The South’s were slavery. I think that is a fair statement.
@doyleb, I don’t care whether Yale changes the name of one, two, nine or zero residential colleges. If the people who decide such things at Yale determine that it is best for the University community as a whole to change the names to colleges 1 thru 11 I will not lose a moment’s sleep. My interests in this thread are completely different.
I object on general principle to the peculiar conceit of judging historical figures solely on the basis of modern principles. I never bought the whole end of history thing, and find the entire concept tiring and juvenile.
I object to the idea that only individuals of a specific class, race or gender are permitted to have opinions on certain subjects, because I find the idea anti democratic. We are either a unitary society or we are not.
I also think that Yale means the University, not a relatively obscure philanthropist. I do not believe that the same can be said about Calhoun. For that reason I do not find it inconsistent to advocate to change the name of one and not the other.
@dstark, are you really saying that John Calhoun is responsible for the institution of slavery in the United States?
@Ohiodad51, No. Why would I say something like that?
Have you started the thread in the middle? I don’t want to repeat myself. It’s boring for everybody…
You nailed it. I believe Lincoln said it to Horace Greeley one of the founders of the Republican party.
Most individuals who fought in the civil war, I would guess, were not fighting over slavery, especially on the union side. Northerners – and Lincoln – were indeed fighting to preserve the Union, as Tatin reminded us above.
However, the reason the union needed to be preserved is that the South seceded. The reason the South seceded was decades of passionate disagreement about slavery, its expansion, and its possible curtailment.
The civil war occurred because of slavery. Individual soldiers fought for a variety of reasons, as is true in every war.
I think this is a little too narrow when it comes for reason for the South. I do think that the reason for the North was to preserve the Union. However, the contrast to that for the South, I believe, was not just to preserve slavery, but more of a general position that “this nation is not developing/building the way we like; time to go our own way.” And, yes, slavery paid a big part because it intersected with trade, commerce, and states rights.
For those looking for more information on “life at Yale” , here is what I have been able to find so far:
The Yale residential colleges - Which Yale advertisements refer to as the “heart of the Yale experience” consist(ed) of:
Yale also had a mandatory “Posture Program” that required all entering freshman to strip buck naked, have a bunch of metal rods attached to their spine, and then have their pictures taken - the pictures were used to support their ongoing Eugenics research, but some got stolen and were used outside the university, so they had to shut the program down.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/15/magazine/the-great-ivy-league-nude-posture-photo-scandal.html
What does the Posture Program have anything to do with anything?
And your “tragic incident” in 5 is a very, very odd reselling of what actually happened when the student confronted the master and yelled at him in an aggressive fashion. She’s no victim.
@Mastadon I think you are just trying to stoke the fires there.
Everyone on this long and mostly thoughtful thread abhors slavery and thinks the prospect of renaming Calhoun is a valid discussion. We all stipulate this.
to your points:
A valid argument regarding Calhoun College. If you want to strike Morse, Franklin, Trumbull from all public and private edifices, you have an uphill battle.
Calhoun’s portrait has been removed, I understand. Do you advocate removing oil portraits of pro-slavery figures from all universities, museums, public buildings?
That stained glass window was ‘fixed’ in the 90s. Case closed.
Master was short for Headmaster; nothing to do with slavery and not derogatory in any way. Masters of Yale’s Residential Colleges are wonderful parental figures doing a difficult job with great grace. My Master told me tearfully of his hardest days having to inform parents of a student’s death or comforting students upon learning their parent’s death or divorce. They also host many heartwarming celebratory events for the students in their R.C. These are honorable, cherished figures and you must not denigrate them as some sort of anachronism. (Sorry, this one I take quite personally.)
Much ado about nothing (IMO). Halloween costumes! One adminstrators says ‘be culturally respectful’ and the wife of an Associate Master says “freedom of expression can sometimes be in poor taste.” Both stances are reasonable. If a student takes great offense at either of these stances, then I think they are the unreasonable one.
Posture Program. A ridiculous program, surely ended in the 60s at latest. (apparently conducted throughout the Ivies and Seven Sisters.) Not an issue for today.
Yale is one of the most progressive, inclusive, objective, intellectually-rigorous, welcoming-of-debate instutions in the country. The fact that they are as carefully introspective on the name of Calhoun shows this. The naked posture photos are arguably a pretty awful intrusion from a generation ago. The rest are words and images that, IMO, are only truly, deeply offensive to the hyper-sensitive or those who are looking for a fight.
@Mastadon “a heated discussion”? You might want to go and rewatch that video. If I ever talked like that to a professor I would expect to be expelled. Screaming at a professor, shouting “shut your mouth” at him, and repeatedly dropping f-bombs when he’s trying to have a level headed discussion is way outside the bounds of reason. People threatening her life isn’t ok, but I also have no problem with the fact that when a potential employer googles her name they’ll find that video and will likely want no part of her.
And they have changed the name “master” to Head of college. Princeton and Harvard change their term too. You gotta keep up, @Mastadon. If you are going to try to be an agitatator, ya gotta use correct information. The stained glass windows were about to be moved to be stored in a museum when Menafee took a broomstick to one of them and smashed it. The only ones who seems behind the times here, @Mastadon … Is… Well take a guess. Ironic that your screenname is either a variant on the spelling of a dinosaur or it is “masta” “Don”. Well, masta, as they say… people who live in glass houses…
Actually, the more I think about it , the more offended I am by your screen name, “masta” don. Maybe you should be forced to change it to a less inappropriate one. Perhaps something related to your beloved Tufts.
I believe very strongly that Greg Lukianoff of FIRE took advantage of the Yale student for his own self promotion. The Master and his wife did not object to the actions of their friend, an invited guest, at least publicly. Lukianoff is not a Yale alum as far as I know, so I don’t believe his actions necessarily reflect poorly on Yale. I don’t intend to debate this again as we had an earlier thread, but I felt it was important to defend the Yale student here.
While Calhoun’s ideas may have been pretty common for when and where he lived, there were plenty of people who were already questioning he institution of slavery. England - including its colonies -abolished the slave trade in 1807 (though it really only ended in 1811) and abolished slavery all together in 1833. Within the US the northern states abolished slavery in the late 1700s to early 1800s for the most part. So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to judge him in the context of his time. (And in that context Elihu Yale was more in the norm than Calhoun was.)
People who traded slaves were in the norm, but those who supported it were not?
Wow, that’s some serious spin there! Did you get dizzy?
First, I don’t know why anyone could be against the mission of FIRE, which is to promote free speech on college campus.
Second, I assume you are talking about Jerelyn Luther. While I don’t wish death threats on anyone, she certainly deserved social criticism for her lack of common decency. She is an outstanding example of parental failure. I made both of my kids watch that video as a lesson in how NOT to behave.
Third, if Jerelyn Luther was injured in any way, we certainly would have heard about it.
Way back at the beginning of this thread I said that what bothered me about protests of this type is that they are not truly attempts to persuade but rather attempts to compel. I mentioned the difference between prior protestors who actively sought media coverage for their acts and this current crop who seek more often than not to operate in the shaodws. @mastadon’s point #5 above is another great example of an attempt to intimidate which back fired in spectacular fashion when exposed to disinfecting sunlight. The idea that there is some nefarious purpose in holding up a public mirror to the actions of the protesters, or ominous warnings that some shadowy racists may have murdered the screaming campus garbage baby (to use humorist Dave Burge’s phrase for campus protestors) is both inflammatory and not terribly persuasive imho.
Residential college master family lives in the college. It is their home too and they also deserve a safe space that in this case was invaded by the mob.
Just wanted to point out that a mastodon is much closer, both genetically and chronologically, to a deer mouse than to a T. rex.