<p>"... Hillary Clinton tells students: 'Graduates from four-year colleges earn nearly twice as much as high school graduates, an estimated $1 million more.'</p>
<p>We hear that from people who run colleges. And it's true. But it leaves out some important facts.</p>
<p>That's why I [John Stossel] say: For many people, college is a scam.</p>
<p>I spoke with Richard Vedder, author of 'Going Broke by Degree: Why College Costs Too Much,' and Naomi Schafer Riley, who just published 'Faculty Lounges and Other Reasons Why You Won't Get the College Education You Paid For.' ...</p>
<p>... 'There are 80,000 bartenders in the United States with bachelor's degrees,' Vedder said. He says that 17 percent of baggage porters and bellhops have a college degree, 15 percent of taxi and limo drivers. It's hard to pay off student loans with jobs like those. These days, many students graduate with big debts ..."</p>
<p>FWIW, another opinion about why college might not be the best choice for everyone.</p>
<p>If the end result of college is to get a job, then these bellhops, porters, and bartenders are still better off with a college degree. One assumes that with a degree that person should be able to carry on an intelligent conversation, and to think ciritcally, which are important in almost any job. When you look at who is currently unemployed in this country, those who did not complete college are in bad shape. The biggest problem is not that people go to college, but that schools are not affordable. I am pleased that the Obama administration is attempting to crack down on the for-profit schools, and this year we have seen consumers choosing the lower cost state schools more often than in years past (based on the posts from CC).
When looking at the long list of college dropouts, they were all from upper-middle class families and had a wealth of opportunities available to them. I prefer to look at the long list of CEOs that went to state school and worked their way up from lower middle class backgrounds. College is an opportunity. It doesn’t guarantee happiness, success, money, etc. Those that feel they don’t need it are more than welcome to walk away from it. But for those that have already had that opportunity to ridicule those aiming for it now seems disingenuous, especially when it comes to criticizing Pell Grants. Those who qualify for the Pell were not raised with the same opportunities as Gates and Branson, and so may be in greater need of the college education.</p>
<p>My son ,unemployed ,with 2009 degree ,took a reception job ,at an acct .firm . After a week ,they offered him a well paid job as an accountant ! Not what he wanted ,but it enabled him to share an apartment , in NYC ,which he really wanted . He had an Economics degree .Had he not had this he would be a receptionist .</p>
<p>College has value for many, but not enough to justify its exorbitant cost for increasing numbers of people. And yes, being articulate and being capable of critical thinking are important for any person, but it shouldn’t cost 100-200K and 4 years after 12 years of primary and secondary schooling to achieve or certify these abilities.</p>
<p>For most people, college is a signaling mechanism and a class marker. It does not turn pig’s ears into silk purses.</p>
<p>Is it just me, or does someone write a new article making this claim every single week? Maybe they should all be condensed into one discussion thread, like with affirmative action in college. A journalist could probably make an entire career out of writing, “Going To College Is A Waste of Time” articles and submitting them to every newspaper or magazine who still needs to meet their weekly quota.</p>
<p>Warbrain–maybe people who didn’t go to college. NJSue–I know that my first hand knowledge is anecdotal, but I know a number of instances where what appeared to be pig’s ears were turned in to silk purses, including one of my sons. This seems to be particularly the case with boys, lots and lots being written about what is happening with boys in school. After watching my 4 kids, lots of nieces and nephews, and lots of friends’ kids go through public schools, I am convinced that the standardized testing system that has taken over has produced schools that could not be more intellectually deadening. Compliance has become the chief virtue in our public schools. Lots of kids go to college and get turned on when what is asked of them is to actually think, rather than memorize and regurgitate. While there a always horror stories of kids graduating with 6 figure loan obligations–the moral there being that there always has been and always will be some foolish people out there–the average undergraduate student loan debt is approx $30,000 +/-. Well worth a college degree. Anyone who says it is not is spewing nonsense, there is no serious argument that it is not worth it.</p>
<p>Those stories are valid to the extent that a college degree does not <em>guarantee</em> you a good job and a good life. Nor does the lack of a degree mean you’re sentenced to a life serving Happy Meals.</p>
<p>But, let’s look at the facts: (1) in this recession, people with a college degree are a lot less likely to be unemployed than people without one; and (2) over the course of a life, people with college degrees earn a lot more than people without them. And I would add, not represented as a fact but as an opinion, (3) if you approach your college experience wisely, it will prepare you to live a fulfilling life in ways beyond enhancing your income, and it will prepare you to more fully engage life as a productive and useful citizen.</p>
<p>People with college degrees have opportunities that those without degrees do not. Not every degree holder takes advantage of those opportunities; they may have to dig for those opportunities; and the opportunities may not be there right when they walk down the steps, new sheepskin in hand. Anybody who thinks a college degree is a ticket to an easy life is deluding themselves; but it is a ticket for a good life, for those who choose wisely.</p>
<p>College requires an ever-growing percentage of a family’s wealth and requires ever more students to take out significant amounts of debt. Thirty years ago it was not uncommon to hear about young people working their way through school. Today, that is almost impossible. Yet as more and more people receive the Bachelor’s, it is becoming devalued as a credential. I would never argue that college is a waste in general (although it is for some); but higher education is a troubled industry with out-of-control costs and an increasingly alienated and angry customer base that feels it’s been sold a bill of goods. The government is deeply inveigled in higher ed and cannot just continue to chant “everything’s great, everyone should go to college” without investing substantially in reforming and improving K-12 and vocational training. It is absolutely not true that more people with degrees = a better economy if there is a mismatch between training and opportunities. Poland has a lot of university graduates who have to leave the country to wait tables in the UK. Switzerland, by comparison, has relatively few young people in higher ed but excellent apprenticeship and vocational training opportunities for the non-college bound.</p>
<p>Many kids do mature admirably between the ages of 18 and 22, but I’m not convinced that it’s college per se that works this magic.</p>
<p>Some tout the military and how much more mature college students who first served in that are. College is about so much more than earning power, maturity training- it is about academics, an education not offered anywhere else. Is it worth it? Certainly so for those who took advantage of the opportunity to learn and discuss with teachers and peers. For many- so much went over their heads and they missed a lot in college. Still, I think our society benefits from the exposure of these students to college life instead of one where it is uncommon. However, our society is now more focused on individual wealth- the super rich businessmen want to hold onto more wealth instead of paying more in taxes/to the workers to benefit society. I could go on but that’s politics.</p>
<p>This made me laugh. At myself. I’m one to believe that college has gotten incredibly expensive, too expensive, and is probably not worth it, for many.</p>
<p>And yet… I will send my kids to college, whether they “need” it or not. </p>
<p>John Stossel went to Princeton. Do you think he’d have the job he has now if he had not gone to college? Do you think in a million years he’d even dream of advising his own kids not to go to college?</p>
<p>What the “too many people go to college” claim often boils down to is, “College is fine for people like me and my kids, but not for you and your kids. We need to keep the riffraff out, and you’re probably too dumb to get anything out of it anyway.” Selfish, elitist claptrap.</p>
<p>When I say college is too expensive and not worth it, my perspective is from my own experience, not because I want to keep any “rif-raff” from going anywhere. Just as another perspective.</p>
<p>OK–depicting college as a ‘scam’ is easy, because (1) a college education has elitist associations, and it’s easy in this country to go after things that are perceived as elitist (2) people have to pay for a college education with money beyond what they contribute in taxes (3) the so-called ‘student loan crisis’ that is also making its way around the media.</p>
<p>So how about this. Let’s use some of the same evidence and arguments, but let’s say ‘high school is a scam’. Let’s have some of these guys say that high school should be ‘optional’ after 16 years old, or around sophomore year–that lots of kids are wasting their time and our tax money by spending those last two years in high school. We should push more with getting kids out of the system at age 16.</p>
<p>Think about how much money we can save in taxes if we didn’t have to contribute so much for those last two years. Of better yet, we can put the additional money into strengthening 4K-10 grades.</p>
<p>And here, I can use the following as my evidence that ‘a certain percentage of bartenders, baggage porters and bellhops have a high school degree, as well as a certain percentage of taxi drivers and limo drivers’. Surely you don’t need a high school degree to hold those kinds of positions.</p>
<p>Or ‘people who finish high school and get a degree are smarter and more disciplined, so they would have made more money even if they didn’t finish those last two years’.</p>
<p>Also, ‘a lot of people who are not suited for those last two years of high school are pushed into it. This doesn’t do them any good.’</p>
<p>And ‘why do high schools push kids into those last two years? Because money comes along with student enrollment’.</p>
<p>^ Wow. Normally I expect the comments on these forums to be pretty dimwitted, but that is frighteningly insightful. Thank you for that.</p>
<p>By the way, I know it can be hard to discern sarcasm online, but this is not sarcasm. I know that trying to convince you that it’s not doesn’t help my case, but really, seriously, good post. I’m going to quit while I’m ahead.</p>
<p>Given the high and increasing costs these days, it may well be the case that college decisions require much more careful thought than before, regarding school characteristics, costs, major selection, etc., rather than just sending an undecided student to an expensive four year college with hope that “everything will just work out in the end”.</p>
<p>While articles like the one under discussion are exaggerated and sensationalized, it is a lot easier now to make bad college decisions than it was a generation or two ago, when costs and student loan debt tended to be much lower, and the number of bachelor’s degree holders to compete against for jobs was also much lower.</p>
<p>Also, immediately after high school may not be the optimal time for everyone to go to a four year school. Some may have no idea what they want to do; putting them on a two year clock to decide (declare a major) may not produce the optimal result. On the other hand, slightly older “non-traditional” students enter four year schools (sometimes after spending the first two years at community college) with clear goals in mind and are successful in school and life afterward.</p>