I think determined is far too strong a word, there are counterexamples aplenty in both directions. That said, I think it is certainly influenced by the kind of student you are from your earliest years.
What does the school list as prerequisites for the calculus courses?
@citymama9 At my school, many AP/IB students take Alg 2 in 9th grade, Trig/Math Analysis in 10th grade, and if IB, choose between SL Math and AP Calc AB in 11th grade, then take the other class in 12th grade. It’s entirely possible skill-wise, I think, though our TMA is actually being renamed to Pre-Calc, so I’m not really sure what that class is.
“Trig/Math Analysis” appears to be another name for precalculus.
However, it seems odd that a student two grade levels ahead in math (precalculus in 10th grade) would not just go straight to AP calculus BC or IB math HL, since s/he should be a top math student. Taking both AP calculus AB and IB math SL seems like a lot of needless duplication of topics.
Not all courses billed as just cal mean they are inferior to the AP equivalent. AoPS cal says right up front it is not an AP prep, but the content is actually more complex than your typical AP BC class.
Part of AP prep is prepping for the exam structure and FRQ format. My ds did take the AP exam, but he had to spend time on his calculator skills bc AoPS focuses on proofs, not calculator type problems.
So, students can have mastery exceeding what is taught in a typical AP class and still not be prepared to take the AP test without spending time mastering format. The courses content needs to teach to the AP test to be billed AP.
^ A great reason top students can do poorly on an AP test if their teacher has not taught to the test enough.
Re #44
However, the non-AP calculus in question was not AoPS or some such, but implied to be a less rigorous one offered by a high school that also offers AP calculus.
@ucbalumnus As another poster pointed out, their child took just cal, not AP cal, and yet tested out of cal at their destination school. A certain portion of class time is spent prepping for the exam, plus the AP exam is given in early May. A school system may not end until late May or even mid June. The 2 classes may ultimately cover the exact same content as AB, but the non-AP class may utilize those extra weeks to cover the equivalent material, but simply not spend time prepping for the AP exam or conform to the AP schedule.
That was the essence of my point. In order to be AP, a course needs to prep for the AP exam. Being a non-AP course does not mean it is necessarily inferior. Not saying that it isn’t, just that it isn’t necessarily the case.
@ucbalumnus
My school’s math track is structured kind of strangely- for example, I think the AP Calc BC class gets merged with HL Math for the second semester?
For myself and other friends who were two grade levels ahead, we were what I consider “normal smart”. As in, smart enough to place in and get As in the accelerated math classes, but not enough to take HL Math. At my school, the teacher for HL Math is notoriously difficult, so that scared off some students. Also, sophomores sign up for HL Math, whereas for HOTA, HL foreign languages, and HL sciences, students sign up in junior year. It’s entirely possible that students are deterred by the longer committment and the thought that if they drop out of IB after junior year, they’ll have a less than stellar grade in HL Math (only one or two students get As) and no IB diploma to show for it.
Their are exceptions but for most students, middle school sets their path. Before entering 9th grade they start taking GT classes, accelerated math, science, English classes, sports, music, debate etc. They have peer sets they take classes with and get influenced by. Of course, there are late bloomers and outliers etc but on average middle school determines your academic destiny upto a certain extent.
For sure. It is not the only way, but one of the most successful ways to do it.
I think that there are likely to be huge differences from school to school in terms of how much middle school affects high school placement. In some cases it will have a big influence, in others, not so much.
More importantly, I also think that this entire discussion seems to think of college admissions as the ultimate “end point”, which it’s not. People develop at different rates and times; the “top 20” schools select for kids who have developed early on, but there are plenty of opportunities for those who develop later. Life doesn’t stop with acceptance (or lack thereof) to a top 20 college. Barack Obama started at Occidental College, then transferred to Columbia and went on to Harvard Law School and greater glory. Just one of many, many examples. My sister was a late bloomer, didn’t get in to her top choices, started at a LAC and then transferred to Brown; she did her PhD at MIT and is a nationally recognized scientist in her field.
My older son has been in GT for 3 years, and been doing supplementary coursework through Johns Hopkins CTY and the Art of Problem Solving, and is several grades above level; he’s doing Algebra in 5th grade. Placement won’t be an issue for him, but as a high gifted kid he has plenty to work on in terms of social and emotional development. My younger son was a special needs adoption from China who spent 3 years in an orphanage, and had physical disabilities and developmental delay due to malnutrition. He’s just beginning to catch up to his school grade. But he has an indomitable spirit, the ability to overcome any adversity, and wonderful social skills. I’m just as confident that he’ll succeed (perhaps more so) than my older son, regardless of whether he gets into advanced middle/high school classes or a top 20 college.
There’s so much more to success in life than where you get in to college.
Well said @renaissancedad. There are so many factors that go into where and how a child is placed. Both kids took placement tests before entering high school.
Sadly, my daughter’s math trajectory was set in elementary school when poor hiring choices by the school (teacher was eventually fired) led her to not being taught math at her level for more than a year. But since math is her super power, she eventually “caught” up and finished with one Calc class in h.s. and is doing well in college in a rigorous STEM program. My son has had a different experience and ended up “ahead” of his peers. But he’s working overtime this semester to maintain a B. Outcomes are often not as expected.
I remember my 8th grade physics teacher saying something about our grades/habits being more or less the same as MS in HS. However, that wasn’t the case for me, though all the top kids did stay top kids in HS. I wasn’t in a complete grade-level class, but everything was grade-level except that we were put in bridge math class in their attempt to get the “above-average” average students to achieve higher. The same physics teacher even told our class that none of us could probably get into UWashington (just to prove him wrong, I got in, as did many others!). I will be attending a top-15 school.
In MS I had one 4.0 trimester in 7th grade. Otherwise, my grades hovered around a 3.5. In 8th grade, I went as low as 3.4, then ended with a 3.7. Not bad, as 3.7 became my goal in HS. In HS, though, for whatever reason, freshman year was a 3.9, then 4.0 afterwards, even with increasing AP classes. The top kids that I looked up to in MS now actually became my peers.
My intention wasn’t to brag, but I don’t really believe in that “track” as much as I believe in personal hard work. In fact, there are several others in my class that went from being in average classes in MS to AP classes in HS (and doing well), and to the top of our class. I think it depends all on how much you want to do well, which definitely can change from MS to HS, but for many kids it does not, so in those cases your “track” fits them (though most top kids do have a track for top colleges from the 1st grade, many times created by their parents, not themselves).
In my district, everything is determined in middle school. Students taking gifted track, advance math track, testing out of regular language courses, getting into clubs and EC, doing summer/online courses, parents knowing how to avoid GPA killer courses/picking GPA booster courses when doing academic conferences for HS while in 8th grade, taking SAT prep for TIP/CTY, playing sports, doing science fairs, are the ones who end up eligible for elite colleges. Only one or two outliers may turn out to be an exception but for 99.9% it is stamped before you even start 9th grade.