The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

<p>didnt read the entire thing, but thats why they need more people who are from a more down to earth background(like me). My parents are working professionals (not ivy league or anything), but bc of the harships they've had in their lives, im am grounded and I know that you should never look down on others. I can imagine not being able to talk to someone bc they didnt go to an ivy league school.</p>

<p>this makes me double think my ivy apps bc I dont wanna be in a place where people look down on me bc my background isnt like theirs. hummm...</p>

<p>You should probably read the whole thing, and the comments here, before drawing conclusions.</p>

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<p>To summarize the 17 pages of prior comment for you, collegebound_91, the author is a jerk and doesn't know what he is talking about. Ivy league attendees (that we either are or know) don't look down on others for such juvenile reasons as the author puts forth.</p>

<p>Rest easy with your ivy apps.</p>

<p>People will not look down on anybody. Most are for the first time in their lives no longer any big deal. They're small fish in a big pond. Most of their parents didn't go to ivy league schools either. The author of the article clearly has an axe to grind.</p>

<p>
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After reading the article I would like to give cudo's to Elite education which took the author mind set to those great heights that could think and analyze and produce an article like that.
Top schools will produce more such students than the state schools.

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Not true. Top schools will ADMIT more such students than state schools, not produce.
Most students admitted to HYP are already fine writers and thinkers before they attend.</p>

<p>Another point to be noted that the author has studied at Yale and Columbia the experience of which is different from the other elite colleges mainly at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford or MIT.</p>

<p>Both Yale and Columbia provide a totally different experience from their surrounding communities. These are like palaces surrounded by Mumbai slums depicted in 'Slum dog Millionaire".</p>

<p>So there is no way students at Yale or Columbia will mingle with anyone from the surrounding communities.</p>

<p>My 2 cents from this summer college visits that moved Yale and Columbia below Caltech.</p>

<p>It seems like the author suggests people who go to top places are more susceptible to "I'm better than you" syndrome, thanks to stratification. I personally don't think it's all that bad, especially amongst people who don't take the brand name too seriously.</p>

<p>ParentOfIvyHope,</p>

<p>I'm not sure I agree. I went to Stanford and as most people know, we are immediate neighbors with East Palo Alto. Bay Areans know EPA as the city that had the highest per-capita murder rate at one point. However, from these "slums" come opportunities for students to learn about the world. A often heard complaint about Stanford is that its a bubble just simply because the campus is so freakin' large! But, our proximity to EPA also spawned a ton of volunteer and EC activities. Mentoring, volunteering and tutoring were just a few things I did while I was an undergrad. </p>

<p>I must say it certainly helped me gain perspective ... =]</p>

<p>-- sevan9</p>

<p>I believe that the purpose of ANY education is very personal. For some it is to gain perspective, for others it is to gain means to comfortably support themselves and their families, still for another group it is a window to the world - opportunity to travel, others have deep desire to help sick ...... it can go on and on and on... there is nothing wrong with any of these goals as long as they are legal. So, different people are getting different experinces out of the same place depending on their personal goals. In regard to specifically Elite education, it just cost more $$$, but if you have unlimited resources or plainly do not care if you spend tons of $$ on education, why not, go for it if this is part of your goal.</p>

<p>
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So there is no way students at Yale or Columbia will mingle with anyone from the surrounding communities.

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<p>I know this is not true with regard to Yale (and suspect it's not true at Columbia either). There is a huge amount of community service that goes on there. Take a look: Dwight</a> Hall</p>

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Over 3,000 Yale undergraduates are involved in Dwight Hall sponsored public service or social justice activities during a given academic year, with over 80% of Yale College students participating in at least one such activity before graduation.

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<p>And this extends beyond New Haven: service trips to NYC happen a couple of times a year, organized by the Chaplain's Office. D is going on one this weekend.</p>

<p>Here's an issue which my S has just raised. He is at an Ivy, and is in the midst of applications and interviews for summer internships. He has concluded that a large part of what the financial companies are looking for is an intangible--a confidence that the applicant "belongs" and would fit seamlessly into the company culture. Does the student talk like we do, behave like we do, dress like we do, share the same hobbies and pursuits we do, etc. This is where coming from a lower or middle class background makes it tough to break through. S may have mastered the exact same information as the next kid and possess an identical skill set (ex. of jargon), but because he wasn't raised around money or social power, he doesn't know the essential jargon or lacks a certain sophisitication that signals he doesn't quite belong. Simple things like calling the Financial Times the Financial Times and not the FT, or referring to the overseas operations of a company as that and not the "international platform" or wearing a dress shirt from JC Penney's, etc. mark one as an outsider. So maybe HYP et al. let the kid in the school, but will he be crippled while there? Mini's words are encouraging. What do the rest of you think about whether class barriors are strong enough that even an Ivy education can't completely break them?</p>

<p>One path of social mobility into an elite school is athletics. Presumably, not every single athlete who gains admission to HYP etc. has had an Ivy-caliber high school preparation. How do these students fair? If they end up in the bottom third of their class at HYP, is that still better than being at the top of the class at the state-flagship? Or does one need to be in the upper third at these elite schools to experience the prestige benefit? I ask because again, since S is going through recruiting, he's noticing that the financial companies generally ignore the application if the GPA is below 3.7. I'm aware that there are other jobs out there, but would the same principle apply? Let's say you're recruiting English majors. Would you take the middle of the road kid at Harvard over the top student at the flagship, or not, all else being equal?</p>

<p>sevan9:

[quote]

I'm not sure I agree. I went to Stanford and as most people know, we are immediate neighbors with East Palo Alto. Bay Areans know EPA as the city that had the highest per-capita murder rate at one point. However, from these "slums" come opportunities for students to learn about the world. A often heard complaint about Stanford is that its a bubble just simply because the campus is so freakin' large! But, our proximity to EPA also spawned a ton of volunteer and EC activities. Mentoring, volunteering and tutoring were just a few things I did while I was an undergrad. </p>

<p>I must say it certainly helped me gain perspective ... =]

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<p>Either you have not been to New Heaven or you are underplaying its problems. It is nothing like EPA. Also EPA is far away from Stanford. You can’t wonder away from the university into EPA. You can only reach EPA if you have to and there is lot of difference in the two. If you truly have attended Stanford then at least appreciate the area surrounding it which is very nice neighborhood.</p>

<p>From Yale you can just take one wrong turn and you are on your own which is not the case with Stanford the surrounding area is very nice and peaceful.</p>

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New Heaven

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<p>Well I'm sure D thinks of it that way, but I know it's not quite that nice. ;)</p>

<p>
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He has concluded that a large part of what the financial companies are looking for is an intangible--a confidence that the applicant "belongs" and would fit seamlessly into the company culture. This is where coming from a lower or middle class background makes it tough to break through.
What do the rest of you think about whether class barriors are strong enough that even an Ivy education can't completely break them?

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<p>These are interesting questions, and I don't have any answers. I would encourage your son to look for companies that have a culture where he feels comfortable, rather than focusing on what the companies want. I agree that class issues might present barriers at many firms, but would he even want to work at a place like that?</p>

<p>I admit I was a grad student at Columbia, but I surely interacted with people from the surrounding community. I shopped at the local stores, ate at local restaurants, lived in a apartment building that was half students and half people with real jobs. Picked up my packages from a post office on 125th street and went all over the city for school projects. Is it a walled in campus? Yes and a very nice one. But I don't see it as significantly different from Caltech (which I love) and it feels a lot less isolated than Stanford.</p>

<p>"because he wasn't raised around money or social power, he doesn't know the essential jargon or lacks a certain sophistication that signals he doesn't quite belong."</p>

<p>It's absolutely true that a lot of big companies expect their recruits to demonstrate that cultural fluency. You can make some progress toward picking this up at HYPetc. if that's one of your goals for your education. You can learn to be fluent in Upper-Middle-Class as a second language. </p>

<p>Re: interacting with the surrounding community, there's interaction and there's social interaction. Sure, Stanford/Yale/etc. students do volunteer work with poor people, and they interact with the working-class service people on and off campus. That's great. It isn't the same, though, as interacting with locals as peers...that's where the class divide comes in. I've never been to an Ivy League party where students brought working-class local young people as guests. That kind of friendship is rare to nonexistent in my experience.</p>

<p>Do you think it's a class divide as much as it is an age and stage-of-life divide? How many students at any sort of residential college campus interact in the way you describe with the locals?</p>

<p>Many of Wall Street's leaders came from very modest backgrounds. The head of Goldman Sachs went to Harvard from the Bronx. I've long had a theory that those from a less affluent background with an elite education were better prepared to succeed than the typical Greenwich, prep school, ivy kid. There's a street smart savvy that the Greenwich kid rarely learns anywhere.</p>

<p>While some kids may need some minor tutorials on dress and social norms, I would never discourage any kid interested in a job anywhere to avoid it for fear of not fitting in. The learning curve is short.</p>

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I've never been to an Ivy League party where students brought working-class local young people as guests. That kind of friendship is rare to nonexistent in my experience.

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I doubt it's common at any, but commuter campuses. Some of my Ivy League friends did come from working class backgrounds though. :)</p>

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Many of Wall Street's leaders came from very modest backgrounds. The head of Goldman Sachs went to Harvard from the Bronx. I've long had a theory that those from a less affluent background with an elite education were better prepared to succeed than the typical Greenwich, prep school, ivy kid. There's a street smart savvy that the Greenwich kid rarely learns anywhere.

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<p>My analysis is totally opposite. The children from an affluent background, but not necessarily ultra rich that have constructive upbringing with an Ivy education are most certain to succeed in life.</p>

<p>It is a fact that upbringing trumps any degrees. That is why a lot of students from non Ivies school succeed over their Ivies counterparts because their affluent but constructive upbringing gives them skill to succeed in this word over the Ivies educated but from less affluent background.</p>