<p>This really thought-provoking article begs the question: are those of us who choose an elite college trapped by our own success?</p>
<p>The</a> American Scholar - The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - By William Deresiewicz</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
<p>there is already a thread with almost the same name about the same thing.</p>
<p>I read about half the article and grew tired of the author's self-flagellation. There is no disadvantage to an elite education. Graduating from an elite school means you can carry on a conversation with anybody, from scholar to plumber. An elite education does not create false self-esteem. If you graduate from an elite school, you have really achieved something and should be proud.</p>
<p>The article is drivel that will be drunk like fine wine by those trying to rationalize their shortcomings.</p>
<p>If you finished reading the article you realize it's not about paper achievements, its about self fulfillment that doesn't have to do things that look good on a paper.</p>
<p>it's about the lack of education you get to be educated, as opposed to the education you get to know how to be "successful" in life.</p>
<p>At age 35, he just learned that "there are smart people who aren't smart." HELLo? Did this man ever volunteer in inner-slums or such when he was at college/high school?</p>
<p>Just because the author of this article became the arrogant, class-exclusive man that he is, doesn't mean he can blame the school system for molding him that way. Not every Ivy grad is like that.</p>
<p>" read about half the article and grew tired of the author's self-flagellation. There is no disadvantage to an elite education. Graduating from an elite school means you can carry on a conversation with anybody, from scholar to plumber."</p>
<p>Um, Because you went to Harvard, you can talk to a plumber? I hope you made this comment in jest...last I looked, there are no plumbing courses or trade classes of any kind offered in the IVY league.</p>
<p>obviously written by a bitter Yankee fan</p>
<p>You know what, If I'm going to spend 200,000$ on an education, call me crazy, but I'll take a good/great career over mind expansion. The guy just seems mildly retarded in terms of social concept.</p>
<p>You can't talk to a plumber for 10 minutes.................................................Your fault
You blame your college for not teaching you the basics of communication.......Your fault
You expected your college to teach you how to sustain a conversation..........Your fault
You assume that because you're socially deficient all other iviers are.............Your fault</p>
<p>You getting a book deal out of it..........................Society's fault for not telling you to shut the hell up already</p>
<p>So. We review a book and leave out all of the parts we're scared to talk about?</p>
<p>The point of the article was to talk about the cycle of elite. The cycle of "mediocrity" -- although that standard of mediocrity is still quite high in comparison to the rest of the world. The absolute homogeneity still found in the upper circles of our ruling class.</p>
<p>And btw? It's not the plumber. One could assume that the author is trying to create an analogy with that seemingly tangential anecdote between the plumbers who've gone to state schools - a large part of the American middle class - and those spoon fed and grade inflated leaders that "Yale" turns out every year. </p>
<p>Read what he's saying. In total. Don't separate the parts and attack each because that seems to serve your purposes.</p>
<p>Of course we all know this, and it's rather common knowledge = Still a boring article.</p>
<p>Ok first off, unclench. Random message board thread, browsed in leisure at 9 in the morning....Didn't expect the need to write an essay or comprehensive analysis so you can ego-whack an articulate reply. Hmmkay? Super. </p>
<p>And even after reading the complete article, all my previous points stand. "I have no social skills, George Bush is dumb....therefore the Ivies that bore us are creating a generation of inept morons". The Latin name escapes me at the moment but I'm pretty sure that's a textbook example of a certain logical fallacy. </p>
<p>It's pretty easy to criticize the hand that fed you, years later, with a diploma now hanging over your wall. </p>
<p>The man, much like yourself, talks in gross generalizations that have little to do with what the schools in question and all to do with the life of rich & clueless. </p>
<p>At best it's an obvious and superficial critic of the elite who were pampered and isolated way before their college years-- with little correlation to the actual education they received at said schools. At worst, it's a deluded self-important douche who, years after the facts, realized that he was a deluded self-important douche and decided to blame his college background for it.</p>
<p>I agree that some of the things are generalizations... but is that not the point?</p>
<p>I'll just skip over your insults and say -- what he said was common knowledge. It's a complete generalization. That said, he had a point and for you to ignore that seems ignorant. </p>
<p>
[quote]
You know what, If I'm going to spend 200,000$ on an education, call me crazy, but I'll take a good/great career over mind expansion. The guy just seems mildly retarded in terms of social concept.</p>
<p>You can't talk to a plumber for 10 minutes........................................... ......Your fault
You blame your college for not teaching you the basics of communication.......Your fault
You expected your college to teach you how to sustain a conversation..........Your fault
You assume that because you're socially deficient all other iviers are.............Your fault</p>
<p>You getting a book deal out of it..........................Society's fault for not telling you to shut the hell up already
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ok first off, unclench. Random message board thread, browsed in leisure at 9 in the morning....Didn't expect the need to write an essay or comprehensive analysis so you can ego-whack an articulate reply. Hmmkay? Super.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'll just skip over your insults and say -- what he said was common knowledge. It's a complete generalization. That said, he had a point and for you to ignore that seems ignorant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And for you to confuse completely ignoring his point with 'writing it off' and insult my reading comprehension seems needlessly pompous, inflammatory, and really just an attempt to bolster your own opinion by downplaying and criticizing others.</p>
<p>Something which I would consider as a character flaw, and not blame on your college.</p>
<p>While there are some on here who would deny that I received an "elite education", it's kind of interesting that Cornell provided precisely what this author says such an education denies.</p>
<p>I was able to expose myself to not only the upper class offspring of global industrialists and worldbeaters that the author discusses, but also to people from vastly different backgrounds, such as one whose father worked as a janitor or another whose father beat him in drunken rages with a baseball bat. I was able to use my time at an Ivy school to learn about cultures very foreign to me and understand the cohesive values and motivations that transcend our shallow facades of socioeconomic difference.</p>
<p>Fascinating experience, I must say. I understand this culture is unique to Cornell in the upper tier, but if the author of this article lived in a bubble, that was his own doing. It's there if you want it.</p>
<p>Ha. You're ok.</p>
<p>It seems we've misunderstood each other. Then again it is in the AM. Coffee was made for a reason.</p>
<p>Anyways, the OP posted the article because he thought it was interesting and it seemed like you and others were discarding it without understanding it. If you had spoken once about its slim merits then I would have felt you'd given the OP an adequate response. </p>
<p>Perhaps I was pompous. Perhaps not.</p>
<p>"You can't talk to a plumber for 10 minutes........................................... ......Your fault"</p>
<p>This statement is classic. I agree with undisclosed.
Some of the author's experiences seem to be outliers. The people educated at elite schools around me seem to be fully capable of talking with plumbers, inner city high school students, and most other people not educated at elite schools.</p>
<p>"the second disadvantage, implicit in what I’ve been saying, is that an elite education inculcates a false sense of self-worth. Getting to an elite college, being at an elite college, and going on from an elite college—all involve numerical rankings: SAT, GPA, GRE. You learn to think of yourself in terms of those numbers. They come to signify not only your fate, but your identity; not only your identity, but your value. It’s been said that what those tests really measure is your ability to take tests, but even if they measure something real, it is only a small slice of the real. The problem begins when students are encouraged to forget this truth, when academic excellence becomes excellence in some absolute sense, when “better at X” becomes simply “better.” "</p>
<p>Though im still a high school student I know people who are like this. People who think they are above others just because they are in an AP class as opposed to someone who is in a level 2 or 3 class</p>
<p>
[quote]
Throughout much of the 20th century, with the growth of the humanistic ideal in American colleges, students might have encountered the big questions in the classrooms of professors possessed of a strong sense of pedagogic mission. Teachers like that still exist in this country, but the increasingly dire exigencies of academic professionalization have made them all but extinct at elite universities. Professors at top research institutions are valued exclusively for the quality of their scholarly work; time spent on teaching is time lost. If students want a conversion experience, they’re better off at a liberal arts college.
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Some of the author's points are obviously controversial, but it's hard to dismiss this one out of hand, given his many years as an Ivy League student and professor.</p>
<p>One implication is that it might make sense to get a bachelor's degree from a school known for its undergraduate teaching, and then get an advanced degree from a school known for its graduate research and professional training. Many of the students who enroll at top LACs have exactly this plan in mind.</p>
<p>Well there are deluded self important douches at every school and every job I ever had in life. They are just out there. I have met some wonderful people from Harvard and Princeton and some real jerks. But the same can be said for a lot of people at just about every other school. If you go through life believing you are better than everyone because of your education, your results in the real world may not be as expected. Then again, some CEO's fit that description too! LOL.</p>
<p>To me success is not measured by credentials and your wallet. Its measured by your character. That may or may not have anything to do with where you went to college. Hopefully college inspires you to do something good, become a decent and honest person and responsible citizen who gives back to society as much or more than was given to you and so forth. </p>
<p>If someone goes to Princeton I congratulate them and then move along. I am more interested in character and integrity than where they went to school. </p>
<p>Some people never get over the fact that life is often very unfair. Its often arbitary and capricious. There will always be people smarter than you or me, who have something you or I dont have and who get into a prestigious school (I am not Ivy educated, but I am very content with my credentials), who got that better job, who has a bigger house a newer car etc. I stopped chasing all of that a very long time ago and started focusing on what is important in my life: my family, my friends, and my interests...much of which have nothing to do with who I am or how much money I have. </p>
<p>I know someone who died recently. A doctor. He never mentioned a lot of his credentials and his wartime heroism. It all came out in his obituary. It was astonishing how humble this great man had been. He had AMAZING credentials and was a M.A.S.H. doctor in Korea and was highly decorated. Nobody hardly knew that. He was beloved because of his passion for his profession and his family and friends. He was a very humble man. And that is someone I would like to emulate in the remainder of my life.</p>
<p>If you went to an Ivy School, then congratulations. But your character and integrity will impress me more.</p>
<p>His written piece isn't entirely silly blather; but just take it with several grains of salt. It contains some pieces of truth of the sense of self-entitlement that many people get when they gain acceptance into elite colleges--as if that alone makes them "better" than anyone else at other colleges. That the hardest part is getting in, and flunking out is almost impossible at the elite colleges--where students get lots of second chances when others at state universities don't even get a second thought if something's turned in late.</p>
<p>He took a lot of time and words to elaborate on this--which, as most of you have covered, involves a lot of trying to relate to the average man and his experiences. I thought the part about John Kerry and Al Gore graduating from Ivies with a Democratic mindset to help the welfare of the general population yet having "elitist" backgrounds that would make them unable to relate to the general population was a good supporting point.</p>
<p>Although I have to say that I felt it was a bit wordy and a bit whiny and repetitive--it definitely portrayed things in a slanted way that I thought was slightly unfair and undermined the value of elite colleges in its negative perspective of them; although that's the subject of the essay, I felt it would've been good to offer counterpoints and expand it to also talk about the advantages of an elite education. And in the piece rife with generalizations, what rings true for one person obviously will be different for the next person. </p>
<p>After all, going to college is the precursor to getting a job, and that's what college is supposed to help you do (you're going college and then to law school to become a lawyer; no one's gonna be in college forever)--I know people also will argue that going to college is all about exploring your interests (e.g., studying philosophy or women's and gender studies, etc), but to many others it's all about learning what you need to know to land that well-paying job. Being pre-professional (what some schools like Northwestern and Dartmouth are reputed to be, for example). That is, don't graduate from a school studying (insert major here) after paying $50k each year only to struggle looking for a job and living out of your parents' home. For many, that's just financially very impractical--EXCEPT, if you go to an Ivy, the prestige of your college degree and the connections and opportunities that come with it override these financial concerns for a lot of people. </p>
<p>You'll occasionally hear those "horror" stories of people trying to downplay an Ivy degree: "He went to Harvard and now he's teaching fourth grade math" or "He went to Yale but he's now unemployed and can't find a job." But for a lot of Ivy grads, being the motivated and driven and intelligent people that they are, armed with the opportunities and connections of the Ivy college, most will not end up unemployed or teaching your children in elementary school (and even if they do end up teaching fourth grade math, it may have been a deliberate individual decision to teach kids because s/he loves teaching). </p>
<p>He fails to realize, in his efforts of making such sweeping generalizations, that college is very individual--it's what YOU make of it. A lot of the world's richest people did not graduate from Ivies, and a number didn't even graduate (lot of rich Harvard dropouts), showing that going to college, or even NOT going to college, clearly does not deter some people in becoming successful in life. It's all about determination and persistence, not exactly something you can teach, or learn, at a college. Getting into an elite college and getting all of its perks is an excellent reward for all these kids packing in the APs and superstar extracurricular activities in freshman year--yet, I agree, one must beware of ego inflation and an exaggerated sense of self-entitlement once one gains acceptance into Yale or Harvard.</p>
<p>I think the main point of what he's trying to say, objectively speaking, is that he's increasingly seeing people at elite colleges being groomed to be professionally driven for that top ibanking or consulting job, or lawyer or doctor job, and not really take the time to be "intellectual" and really explore the "big questions" that he sees kids at other colleges do. And that these kids at elite colleges are, mentally and emotionally, "above" others because, in huge part, of our culture revering the Ivies and the prestige and connections that come with them--the "old boys" club.</p>
<p>But then again, it's a SMALL number of people he's talking about, if you take all the other thousands of colleges in context and the much, much bigger population of students who do not go to Ivies for undergrad. And that doesn't even mention those who go to Very Obscure State U or Very Obscure Liberal Arts College or Community College X yet manage to end up at Harvard Medical School or Yale Law School for grad.</p>
<p>At the same time, I think he makes a lot of shallow generalizations and judgments about the typical student at an elite college--so you just have to take it with a grain of salt about this that's based on his opinion and his experiences. Think of it this way--getting into Harvard is just a steppingstone but from then on it's all about how YOU use your resources and environment to your advantage and will land you that very important interview; however, if at the interview you are very shy and antisocial and just not very comfortable with yourself, your interviewer will not care a single whit that you went to Harvard. Your boss won't care if you went to Stanford or Yale if you can't even do your job. </p>
<p>Although I don't agree with some of what he says, I do find it interesting and good to have another viewpoint on something that is so fiercely idolized here on CC (getting admission to the Ivies). All in all, it's very stereotypical and very general. It has its flaws, but it also has its grains of truth.</p>
<p>^^ I definitely agree with you</p>
<p>The author is making generalizations for the social skills of people with elite education. Not all people who come from Oxford or Harvard are rich snobs that we see in the movies. It's great to have a Harvard degree, but it's just a means to an end.</p>
<p>I'll chase that bigger house and faster car, but I don't need the Ivy League education to do so. I also want my character to stay intact. </p>
<p>Jeffrey Skilling, famous from the Enron scandal, had an M.B.A. from Harvard. George Bush, one of the most unpopular presidents, graduated from Yale. Who really talks about their Ivy League education nowadays?</p>