<p>I am in total agreement with hoveringmom. My son is a sophomore, non athlete, non drinker and enjoys intellectual pursuits. He LOVES Williams and has a wide variety of friends. I, too, am bothered by the sweeping generalizations repeatedly made by a ladylazarus and person. High school students and thier families need many perspectives as they evaluate individual colleges, but generalizations about entire populations in any context, can be quite harmful to those seeking a balanced view. I have to wonder, after reading their posts over the past year, what is their point? The number of students having an incredibe experience at Williams far exceeds those who don’t according to my son and his friends.</p>
<p>The point is that no college, no where, no how is going to have a 100% happiness rating. The period between high school and real life is an emotional mine field in any case and the chance of up and down experiences is great. College is not a game of duplicate bridge. If you make the wrong choice you may be a misfit, but you’ll never really know if you would have been more socially successful at another school. Sometimes it’s the wrong school for you and sometimes it’s just the wrong time in life for you. I was fairly miserable at college too, but things have picked up dramatically over the years.</p>
<p>My son’s experience at Williams was for the most part extremely positive. Now three years out he and his friends are all moving forward in forging happy and meaningful careers and private lives. For the friends and connections that Williams provided and continues to provide we are grateful.</p>
<p>I do bristle when I hear Williams accused of being non-intellectual. Intellectual curiosity is an intangible quality that can’t be quantified or defended, but you know it when you see it. And without doubt Williams students have it, use it, value it, share it.</p>
<p>There are many reasons not to choose Williams: too small, too cold, too White, too rural, too athletic, too social, too rigorous, too politically apathetic, too understated, too many purple cows. But to cross Williams off your list because you fear being an intellectual outcast is just plain wrong.</p>
<p>JohnWesley, I see nothing inappropriate about what hoveringmom wrote. Posters such as lady and person don’t just suggest that Williams “isn’t perfect,” but continually suggest that Williams students are rich, intolerant, and would rather drink on their spare time than do anything else. But, I find it curious why such non-intellectual kids would pick a school known for it’s academic rigor. Certainly my D, who loves it at Williams so far, picked it for it’s academics. As a public school child, she is thrilled to find an abundance of other scholar-athletes who hold similar values. Certainly, among those values is appreciation of an intellectual and tolerant life. </p>
<p>I take the experiences that lady and person have/had at Williams at face value. I’m sorry they didn’t find the community in college which the sought. I’m sure their experience is their reality and it might be other’s. But, Williams is working hard to improve the campus culture for the LGBTQ community and continues to be generous in financial aid for the “non-rich” kids. So far, D has found “everyone” very kind and helpful about any questions and concerns. She is a bit surprised to find herself in such a caring community.</p>
<p>Wow. Just wow.
Here’s a colloquy from a thread just last April between Hoveringmom, Ladylazarus12 and one other student, kkari:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/915009-fun-williams.html#post1064699714[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/915009-fun-williams.html#post1064699714</a></p>
<p>Neither student was saying anything differently back then, than LL12 and Person are saying now and when both students alluded to drinking on the weekends, Hoveringmom’s response was “Thanks – That’s reassuring”, meaning what? If you follow the rest of the thread the clear import was that she could live with the presence of alcohol as long as kids weren’t coming to class high on cocaine.</p>
<p>Johnwesley–What are you, Fox News? You enjoy taking quotes out of context and then making false accusations about an individual poster? Please. Stick to the topic. Obviously I wasn’t saying it was ‘reassuring’ that people get drunk but not high on drugs. Your attempts to smear me are the refuge of someone who has nothing of substance to say.</p>
<p>^^^isn’t that what you’ve been doing to ladylazarus12? really, the irony here is delicious.</p>
<p>The foregoing vitriol aside, all lurkers on CC need to realize that those who are unhappy (situationally or with life in general) are more apt to take the time to post and get undue attention to their stated woes (squeaky wheel concept). A school that has been tops in the country for over 200 years and has among the staunchest and most loyal alumni in the nation can’t be miserable for all. All of the fine education in the world can’t buy happiness, and no one place is a “perfect fit” for all- sounds like someone might have been happier at Vassar, Wesleyan, whatever…</p>
<p>If, “Williams College wasn’t all I’d hoped it would be,” is one’s major gripe as a college student, then life is pretty good because many top high school students would love to have had the opportunity to go there. Of course, it is not perfect for everyone, but then no college or institution of any kind is perfect for everyone. If the disaffection is bad enough, I suspect that transferring from Williams is probably easier than transferring to Williams. </p>
<p>The crux of the complaint seems to be a lack of diversity.
No one can seriously argue that the student body at Williams is not exceptionally bright and academically talented. Whether it is diverse enough is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Diversity in the student body and of thought / point of view is an issue that bedevils many elite academic institutions.</p>
<p>I did not attend Williams and know only two people who did, both of whom loved it. However, I have looked into it as a possible college for my children and have been very impressed. Is it such a bad thing to attract scholar athletes (Schathletes as my son would say), people who work on their minds and bodies? If there is overt prejudice against gays, intellectuals, artists, etc., then that would be a very serious problem, but it sounds more like the existence of a dominant culture with different values than the critics would have preferred, with a resultant indifference rather than intolerance. </p>
<p>Of course, it is uncomfortable to feel like one is on the outside looking in. However, there are LAC’s where athletics take more of a backseat: Reed, Oberlin, and Vassar come to mind (not putting them down at all, they are great schools for brilliant kids). Maybe bright students should base their choice of college more on the right fit than prestige.</p>
<p>johnwesley - thanks =)</p>
<p>Ok, hoveringmom, I’ll address your concerns here.</p>
<p>You claim “She crosses the line, to my mind, in posting frequently on this site, which attracts mostly potential Williams applicants, in the voice of authority rather than in the voice of personal limited experience,”</p>
<p>First, I don’t see how I’ve done that. This is clearly my opinion and I am open to being contradicted and entering into an argument that doesn’t involve mud-slinging. I have made no grandiose claims to authority. Second, only half of all my posts have been about ‘dissing’ Williams, as a look at my stats will show you. Here’s some evidence to support my claims:</p>
<p>ON ENTRIES:</p>
<p>"As someone who likes to drink in (what I think is) a sensible way, I didn’t feel at all welcome in my entry. I’m also not into the whole ‘pre-gaming and then heading out to a loud party for a random hook-up’ scene as most people - at least most entries - seem to be. So I was pretty miserable freshman year. In later years, you can at least choose who you live with but if you get a bad entry freshman year, that can sour your entire time at Williams. I did know of some people who switched out of entries, but Campus Life only does that in very drastic circumstances…Maybe this isn’t the right forum for all this, but I noticed some comments about drinking, the social scene, and the entry system, and thought I’d add my two cents worth. " <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/908466-i-know-you-just-have-visit-but-2.html#post1064745918[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/908466-i-know-you-just-have-visit-but-2.html#post1064745918</a></p>
<p>ANSWERING GENERAL QUESTIONS:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/910935-couple-questions.html#post1064651639[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/910935-couple-questions.html#post1064651639</a></p>
<p>SUPPOSEDLY WILLIAMS-BASHING:</p>
<p>" akamom- this is going to be brief because I need to get to my Philosophy thesis (!!). but at the end of freshman year, I was nowhere nearly as disillusioned with Williams as I am now. It’s taken me four years to arrive at the conclusions I’ve arrived at.</p>
<p>I realize that my expectations may have been too high, or that I’m always going to be part of a minority that has trouble being happy anywhere - trust me, all that’s crossed my mind. It’s just that I’m not the only person who feels this way. Granted I’ve come across maybe a couple of dozen people in my time here who’ve felt the same way. But I still think that anyone with certain interests should be aware of what s/he’s getting into, and that’s all I’m trying to do here. I am not making generalizations; I’m just warning prospective students, and I’m sharing my own experiences. I’m not saying: “don’t come to Williams”; I’m saying: “think twice.” " …" PS: akamom, I would strongly recommend a Philosophy major for anyone who’s a current student here. I’ve said this before but it bears repeating: the Phil professors are absolutely <em>wonderful</em>." <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/890874-oh-bad-2.html#post1064647800[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/890874-oh-bad-2.html#post1064647800</a></p>
<p>AS A FROSH:</p>
<p>" And I don’t want to be overly negative, because I <em>do</em> like being at Williams…but Previews can sometimes be misleading. Williams is not exclusively a “jock school” but the prevailing culture is most certainly sports-friendly. The Williams Outing Club is great if you’re into hiking and things like that. Your question seems very important. A lot of what the viewbook and the website says about “diversity” can be misleading. But I really don’t want to scare you off! It’s different for everyone I guess, but being a not so social, not into heavy drinking, non sporty person, fitting in was much harder. Do let me know if you have any specific concerns or need any info… "</p>
<p>I realize that a thread to which I contributed quite a lot - Minorities, Queers etc. - has been removed from CC. Maybe you’re basing your opinion of me on that. I have no concrete evidence, but I don’t recall claiming that my statements about the intellectual life at Williams are the last word on the issue. </p>
<p>Feel free to argue with me or offer challenges to some of the points I’ve made. However, if this can be done without being rude and overly confrontational, I’d be very grateful.</p>
<p>Let me repeat: I DO NOT think that I have access to some fundamental truths about life at Williams, and have never indicated this in any way. I’m a recent graduate who was unhappy there even though I made every effort to be otherwise. I base my comments both on my experiences and the experiences of all the people I’ve interacted with during my four years at Williams.</p>
<p>Oh also, it’d be great if you could tell me where exactly I made the sweeping generalizations in Post 17 (which is what you seem to be responding to). Here’s my reading of it:</p>
<p>So I just graduated. When I joined in 2006 there was still some semblance of this ‘different side’ you speak of, and I think the existence of Odd Quad had something to do with it. [I don’t see how this is controversial]</p>
<p>However, during my time at Williams I found a grand total of two people who were ‘intellectuals’ in the way the OP has defined the word. [Relating my own experience]</p>
<p>And as for people who’re non-mainstream - again, a tiny, tiny minority. Williams, I feel, is the kind of place that really doesn’t allow for subcultures to exist. [Fact. I’ve had Professors tell me this. Nonetheless the qualifying “I feel”]</p>
<p>I’ve also been involved with two separate attempts to form a “pseudo intellectual” club. I’ve had my fair share of wso posts. I’ve tried engaging classmates/entrymates in conversations about things I cared about and was accused of trying to “hyper intellectualize” my life. [Relating experience. A response to the poster who suggest these things as a way of being happier at Williams]</p>
<p>I think it’s possible that things have changed quite a lot at Williams since you’ve been there. [The qualifying ‘I think’]</p>
<p>To put it somewhat crudely, in order for something to be a generalization, it must involve arriving at generalized statements (All X are Y or Some X are Y) on the basis of particular instances of X being Y. I fail to see how I’ve done this in my post.</p>
<p>Lady, you have certainly been a great source of practical information about Williams and have helped me a lot as to the pragmatics of living there. But, to be fair, you have made some generalizations about the student body that is less than flattering. </p>
<p>This is a sweeping generalization as originally posted by the OP: “The American cultural, political and intellectual mainstream (my entry, not atypically, bonded over beer pong, ESPN, Gossip Girl, support for Obama [whom they still regard as very liberal], and Hugh Grant movies, while my JA, a junior English major who had not heard of Proust, thought me disquietingly “intellectual” for reading things in my spare time which she no doubt associated only with homework assignments… so, if none of that sounds quite idyllic, reconsider applying to Williams, because [having discussed it with many other students] it will be a shocker if your entry experience differs in kind. [Entries are cross-sections of the student body.])”</p>
<p>It is a sweeping generalization that you indirectly agreed to when you mention disappointment of intellectuals as “defined by the OP.” To me, it is an unflattering portrayal and insulting to the student body. Maybe my D, since going to Williams, has started watching Hugh Grant movies, ESPN, and Gossip Girl. Maybe she started drinking and playing “beer pong.” But, it sounds like she is too busy with classes, sports, hiking, dance lessons, and meditation to do much of those other extra-curriculars identified by the OP. Which brings me to your difficulty of forming a “pseudo-intellectual” club. I suspect that may be not just difficult but almost impossible at Williams. Someone like my D would be very interested in joining such a club. But, she would have to give up one of her other activities to do it and I suspect that would not happen. It’s not indifference, but different priorities and I sympathize that there are few students at Williams that would make such a club a priority.</p>
<p>Gosh, I’d hate to see you guys after an unfavorable comment in the New York Times or on The Daily Show; I honestly think some of you would suffer cardiac arrests. This is especially true since some of you seem to be veering between denying everything the OP said exists while justifying it at the same time (“hey, she should have chosen for fit”). You can’t have it both ways.</p>
<p>GT Alum, <em>this</em> is the definition I was alluding to:</p>
<p>“Now, as appddad pointed out, one can use the word intellectual in a number of perfectly legitimate ways. One of these—the one I hope will be useful here—would be to understand intellectual as having nothing to do with intelligence or commitment to or enjoyment of academic work (Williams students have these abundance), but rather as having more to do with a passion for sharing in and reflecting on ideas in a way that extends to life beyond the classroom (usually, but not necessarily, philosophical, political, or aesthetic ideas).”</p>
<p>So yeah, my comment - directly or indirectly - did not endorse the opinions expressed in the OP</p>
<p>Also I <em>fail to see</em> how the OP is a generalization. Person described his/her entry, and went on to say that, if people wanted something different from college life, they should reconsider applying to Williams. I wish you could show me where exactly Person makes the sweeping generalizations I’ve purportedly endorsed.</p>
<p>johnwesley, I enjoy discussion. It’s an anonymous message board and I thought we were having a civil discussion. I’m not sure why you want to make it more than that.</p>
<p>Sounds like johnwesley may have attended Wesleyan (old rivalries die hard).</p>
<p>^^Yes, I attended Wesleyan and I don’t think a year goes by when someone in the media (and, I’m talking about real media – not CC discussion groups) doesn’t decide to take a potshot at “Naked Dorms”, “hippies”, “hipsters”, “The Left” – you name it. We’ve learned to accept these pin pricks as part of the price of being a national institution. When Williams climbs into the big leagues it will learn to do the same thing.</p>
<p>Sorry lady, we were using different definitions and I certainly defer to you as having superior knowledge than I as to how the typical Williams student fits that definition. I guess if you don’t see how the quote I copied from OP’s original post is a sweeping generalization, I’m not sure what else to say. He described his entry and said it would be surprising if other entries did not bond over trite movies, tv shows, politics, and drinking. That sounds like a generalization to me it paints William’s students not just taking time for discussion of the intellectual life but as rather shallow people. I’m sorry I suggested you agreed with that.</p>
<p>"Maybe bright students should base their choice of college more on the right fit than prestige. "</p>
<p>In the end, isn’t this the point here? Many LACs, given their small size, have a predominant campus culture that can be quite influential in social life there. The “condemnation” of Williams here is merely that it too is an LAC and shares these characteristics. Make sure you understand the culture at your LAC before matriculating there, is all.</p>
<p>Again, I’ll make the same caution I make every time the same two posters show up, repeating the same group of negative generalizations about Williams, followed by about 5-10 students, recent alums, or parents of current students (many of whom seem to fit into EXACTLY the categories LL and Person are so confident will almost surely be unhappy at Williams) objecting to those generalizations: at ANY school there are going to be a few very unhappy people, who generalize their own personal experience to an indictment of the entire school. Don’t take what they say as gospel but rather communicate with the many, many other people here (and frankly, far larger body of people on campus) who have a different view. </p>
<p>I am white and yes, fairly mainstream. I grew up middle class (neither of my parents ever made six figures in their careers). I enjoy athletics and the outdoors, but have never in my life, high school, college, etc. played a varsity of club level type sport. I knew nothing about any sort of prep school before I got to Williams. Williams isn’t the place for someone who feels most comfortable spending all their time in the West Village, but that is facially obvious (although since Williams I’ve lived in vibrant urban neighborhoods, which I love, but I often find myself pining for the Berkshires as well). My friends were racially very diverse, and definitely have intellectual / quirky tastes. We went to independent and foreign films at Images. We went to interesting contemporary art exhibits and discussed what we saw. We played Trivia at Williams. We wrote editorials for campus publications or published poetry. We took trips to Montreal and NYC. We listened to interesting and unusual music. Yes, we had intellectual discussions. We also drank beer and played video games and watched action movies and took a spring break trip to the beach and talked about who we wanted to date. </p>
<p>What I loved about my time at Williams is that I’ve never found, to this date, a group of people who simultaneously satisfied my intellectual side and, well, more visceral side. My high school was one extreme – typical jock-dominated public high school. My grad school (UChicago) I felt was the other. For me, Williams was just right. And I’ve been surrounded by the intellectual elite at every stop since Williams, but I’ve never been around as engaging – on so many levels – interesting, unique, witty group of people as my college friends. And I still feel a special, immediate bond whenever I encounter other Ephs. </p>
<p>Now, maybe I just got incredibly lucky with my group of friends at Williams. Maybe Ladylazurus and Person just got incredibly unlucky. I guarantee you they didn’t meet (at any deep enough level to judge at least) nearly enough people at Williams to make such sweeping condemnations of the entire student body. I was one of the most social people in my class at Williams, and I’m guessing a bit more open-minded and less judgmental than LL and Person (based on their posts at least), and even I was stunned at graduation at how many people I’d managed not to really know beyond a quick conversation or two, let alone in OTHER classes. Some of them I’ve encountered since college and wish I had known better while at Williams. 2000 people, while very small, in many ways is a lot more than you’d think. </p>
<p>Is there some kernel of truth in some of what LL and Person say? Sure. But they go WAY too far in their generalizations and commentary in the view of MANY people who they would be shocked to learn were enormously happy at Williams. And guess what? There are white, preppy, rich jocks who hate Williams too. Sometimes the fit just isn’t right for reasons hard to explain. Some people are just determined to ***** and make the worst of any situation. For me, Williams was the ideal environment to really get to know, at a deep level, the most interesting group of people I’ve ever been around. And I didn’t have to be a rich, heavy-drinking, preppy jock (and yes, they are abundant at Williams, but no, they are not a majority on campus) to find a huge amount of common ground with a huge number of my classmates. </p>
<p>By the way, look at the numbers closely. Among NESCAC schools, Williams is, along with Amherst and Wesleyan, by far the most diverse – entering classes are now approaching 40 percent non-white students and about 7 percent internationals, so barely more than HALF the campus are American white students. While hardly a paragon of economic diversity, again, due to its tremendous financial resources Williams can attract a hefty percentage of Pell Grant recipients via programs like Questbridge. Williams has far more math and science majors than the typical liberal arts school. Over half the student body receives financial aid. There are students from all 50 states plus all over the world. A HUGE percentage of the student body is engaged in the arts, attracted by the art history reputation, area cultural attractions, tremendous music opportunities, and so on. [And yes, I consider being engaged with the arts intellectual, but yeah, if you are only considered “intellectual” if you like to discuss Proust, then I guess I am just another Eph neanderthal]. The Williams of 20 years ago was SO much less diverse than today’s Williams, and the trend is only towards further diversification. </p>
<p>And yes, 40 percent of students play varsity sports, but that hardly means they are “jocks” in the classic sense. A substantial percentage of that group are on the following teams: cross country, track and field, crew, and swimming and diving, individual sports with huge rosters and few recruited athletes that don’t have the same culture as a lacrosse or football team. Other than a fit appearance, I guarantee you couldn’t tell a typical runner or rower at Williams from any other student. Unless you, again, had a preconceived notion of what an “athlete” is like, which some of williams’ most persistent critics appear, in my mind, to have.</p>
<p>Oh, and of all the things I’ve read on this thread, the one that rung most untrue (based on MY experience at Williams) was a notion that intellectual non-assigned reading is somehow strange or frowned-upon at Williams. My JA turned me on to Nabakov and DF Wallace. I had a friend who was a Pynchon freak. Another who loved Raymond Carver. And on and on. I knew many, MANY people at Williams who enjoyed reading outside of class.</p>
<p>One more thing: how many other colleges manage to engage their students and alums to the extent that they inspire an entire blog (Ephblog) devoted to members of their communities endlessly debating / discussing the college, and ideas in general? [And yes, like all internet fora, the blog can have some, ummm, less than proud moments, but I think it is indicative of the level of intellectual curiosity of at least a good chunk of people in the Williams community].</p>