The drawbacks of going to Williams

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>This thread is for those who wish to discuss the negative aspects of Williams which are not as immediately obvious as its small size and relative isolation. </p>

<p>Actually, in light of its size and isolation, it is especially important for prospective students to hear about the dissatisfactions commonly felt at Williams---and to hear about them from those who, like me, have had first-hand experience of the school as a student. </p>

<p>It is of course true that Williams is nothing short of fantastic for many; for others, it can seem like purgatory, a colossal mistake. The assumption here is that it is fruitful to responsibly discuss what factors contribute to someone’s loving or hating Williams---for very often is it one or the other, in ways that don’t seem purely idiosyncratic.</p>

<p>As a start, and basing this on observations of all of the people I’ve known at Williams who have either wanted to, or have, taken time off or transferred, I would say that one’s likelihood of thriving at Williams increases sharply with identification with some or all of the following groups: </p>

<p>---Upper-middle or upper class (where the first is defined by one’s family paying about half or more of one’s cost of education and the second by one’s family paying in full.)</p>

<p>---Straight and/or gender-normative (the few queer students at Williams are much, much more likely, whether at times or permanently, to feel alienated from the campus mainstream, to regret going to Williams, to experience depression, and also to take time off or to transfer)</p>

<p>---Athletes (intercollegiate or intramural---the great majority of students are one or the other, and one’s athletic affiliation serves in effect just as a fraternity or sorority---don’t be misled by the official lack of Greek life: Williams has a very fratty, preppy scene)</p>

<p>---Drinkers (of beer and vodka, not primarily of wines, spirits and cocktails---these you won’t find at Williams parties)</p>

<p>---The American cultural, political and intellectual mainstream (my entry, not atypically, bonded over beer pong, ESPN, Gossip Girl, support for Obama [whom they still regard as very liberal], and Hugh Grant movies, while my JA, a junior English major who had not heard of Proust, thought me disquietingly “intellectual” for reading things in my spare time which she no doubt associated only with homework assignments… so, if none of that sounds quite idyllic, reconsider applying to Williams, because [having discussed it with many other students] it will be a shocker if your entry experience differs in kind. [Entries are cross-sections of the student body.])</p>

<p>Now, two points should be raised to prevent misunderstandings. First, I identify with most of the above headings---this is not a case of “sour grapes”. I just think that, since I’ve known many people who expected Williams to be very different than it is, it might be of great help to provide a public resource for thinking about what might cause one to be a poor fit at Williams.</p>

<p>Second, the above is schematic and rough, but it is not for that reason useless to prospective students. Of course, there are exceptions to the above, probably very many, but the question is whether it appropriately tracks factors that at least correlate well with satisfaction at Williams. That they do so is unsurprising, because each of the headings captures the vast majority of Williams students; a place that is small, isolated, and at which one has little in common with the (relatively homogenous) bulk of the students is clearly not the best college choice, whatever else it may have going for it.</p>

2

<p>D identifies with 2 of the 5 groups (straight and athletic) and seems very happy. Williams tries to do a lot for it’s LGBQT community and has put a lot of resources into diversity, sexuality, and gender programs. I certainly understand why, despite those efforts, a queer student may feel more isolated at a small rural school. But, the college seems to care about such feelings and noted on move-in day banners and talks recognizing different gender and sexual norms. We were told that everyone has a gender and everyone has a sexuality and all are welcome to discuss those issues and peruse the materials. There is also a talk about supporting your LGBTQ student during parent’s day. Some of these initiatives seem to be new (new hire for gender/sexuality part of the diversity center), but I’m not sure what else the college can do. </p>

<p>It seems D is happy to be with what you say are a minority of lower class, non-drinkers, and “intellectuals.” I’m sorry you’ve felt pressure to be a different person.</p>

3

<p>Eek! Those are certainly off putting characteristics of Williams. I was attracted to Williams because of the discussions I had with Williams students about history and math. They were cohesive, intelligent, and kind. So, you think there’s no room for intellectuals?</p>

4

<p>From what I’ve seen and heard, people at Williams are quiet about their intellectualism - they like learning, but they won’t be the one to bring it up in conversation. That’s just from what I’ve heard from others.</p>

5

<p>To all prospective students: what person5923 is saying could apply to any of the small elite liberal arts colleges in our country. Please do not allow the opinion of a single student, who reappears from time to time on this board, to sway your perspective of Williams or any other school. Finding a college that is a good individual fit occurs after visiting the campus, and talking with a wide range of students. Is Williams the right school for everyone? Obviously no, but this fact is true for every school in the country.</p>

<p>Our son is a sophomore at Williams and is not an athlete. He has developed an interest in being physically fit after attending Williams (yeah!) and has found the environment intellectually stimuating. He is not a drinker, and feels no pressure to do so. He is having the time of his life.</p>

<p>Our second child is looking at completely different types of schools. Does that make Williams a poor choice? Absolutely not. What is right for one student is not right for another. Williams is in a rural setting. The students are all multi-talented. But again, the only way to find out if Williams is right for you is to visit and solicit a wide range of opinions. You do yourself a disservice to allow a single perspective to drive your decision.</p>

6

<p>While there is truth in some of what person5923 says, I fear she takes her criticisms too far.</p>

<p>I am a straight white male, and I did drink at Williams when I went there in the early part of the last decade, but I do not come from an upper-middle class or upper class background, and I certainly did not associate with what Person5923 paints as a hegemonic culture of preppiedom. On the contrary, I found a group of sort of 2000s-era countercultural intellectuals and outdoorspeople; they remain among my best friends in the world.</p>

<p>It is not that this culture of Idiot Preppiness does not exist at Williams – it does, but it should be ignored. It’s claim to hegemony is precisely that: a claim, and giving it more credit than it’s due only helps it out. In the same way that the United States does have among its citizens a fair portion of bigoted, right-wing know-nothings, so too does Williams have among its students a fair portion of meathead/greedhead rich kids, the collar poppers and the pearl girls.</p>

<pre><code>But they do not define Williams, just as the Right does not define America!

Indeed, it is only when one looks past this superficial ugliness, and sees what is best in the character of both the United States, and, more humbly, at Williams, can one get a true picture.
When I think of Williams, I think, first, of the land, which I came to love and know so well in my four years there; second, the absolutely excellent quality of the faculty (they helped prepare me thoroughly for graduate study); and third, the truly unique, smart, and curious people I met there. You may have to look for them, but they are certainly there – don’t let the Jock-Prep veneer of future I-Bank D-bags fool you (to be fair, my former thesis advisor feels that the population of the college has become more athletic and incurious in recent years).

It’s not for everybody, but if you love the outdoors, great professors, and a cadre of good, weird, smart friends, it may be the place for you. On the other hand, if you are looking for a more purely intellectual experience, Swarthmore may be for you, and if you want the City, well, Williams is right out.

To sum up: ignore the coterie of D-bags, and hang with the true pioneers of the spirit. They’re there (or at least, were in my time).
</code></pre>

7

<p>The OP’s lament brought to mind a classic Woody Allen story, The Whore of Mensa.</p>

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<p>It’s interesting that many think of Williams as preppy. As a visitor, it didn’t seem that way to me at all. D, who went to public school, denies that it’s a preppy school. She states that there are a lot of rich people there but they “don’t act rich.” But, she does say that the campus is athletic. Those that aren’t on a sport “work out.”</p>

9

<p>Preppy? Try Princeton, Duke, etc. on for size. As with all schools, the student body represents a mix of personalities: the common thread is talent and smarts. Definitely more athletes than at Swarthmore, U. Chicago or Reed, but with a population of over 2,000 undergraduates, there are significant subsets of artists, “intellectuals”, etc. The only major reason not to attend Williams (if lucky enough to be accepted) would be if one wants an urban undergrad experience.</p>

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<p>^^^ Agree.</p>

11

<p>To be honest I think the negatives you mention apply to virtually all of the elite campuses universities and LACs. At all of these campuses the dominate culture is upper middle class and populated by very capable students that are more interested in career goals as opposed to learning goals.
My daughter attends Williams. She is a non-drinker who enjoys reading literature in her spare time. Some might call her an intellectual. However, I think we need to careful about how we define the term. I was a graduate student at Princeton and was surprised that many of the graduate students in the humanities did not consider those of us in the sciences and technology fields as intellectuals. In my opinion an intellectual is anyone that engages in critical thinking, analytical thought or problem solving regardless of the subject matter. Intellectualism does not exclude those with that drink, use pot or have a true addictions. The list of ‘intellectuals’ that had serious drinking problems includes great writers (e.g. Joyce, Hemingway), artist (Toulouse-Lautrec, van Gogh) and scientist/physicians (Freud).</p>

12

<p>Several adults have indicated that the characterization of the great majority of Williams students–as well-off, as athletic, as preppy, as partiers, as “unintellectual” or as merely success-oriented----is also true of the students at almost every elite institution. </p>

<p>However, this inaccurate: Williams students are more uniformly these things than, say, students at Princeton or Duke, places often criticized in the same connection. For example, 40% of Williams students are varsity athletes. At Princeton, it’s 20%.</p>

<p>But Princeton has 2.5x as many undergraduates and is not quite in the middle of nowhere, so if you wish to avoid its dominant culture—which without doubt is the same dominant culture at Williams—it is not difficult to do so, whereas at Williams it is next to impossible. (Princeton certainly has no shortage of queer students, for instance.) So it is all the more important if you’re thinking about Williams to be sure you’d thrive in such a culture. </p>

<p>Now, as appddad pointed out, one can use the word “intellectual” in a number of perfectly legitimate ways. One of these—the one I hope will be useful here—would be to understand “intellectual” as having nothing to do with intelligence or commitment to or enjoyment of academic work (Williams students have these abundance), but rather as having more to do with a passion for sharing in and reflecting on ideas in a way that extends to life beyond the classroom (usually, but not necessarily, philosophical, political, or aesthetic ideas).</p>

<p>So, Williams students are very smart, take their assignments seriously, and enjoy studying, but you will not find them reading the Symposium or Gargantua and Pantagruel during the summer or discussing critiques of liberal political thought at dinner. If finding pockets of that is what you’re after, it’s probably best to look elsewhere. Williams has no real approved extracurricular outlet for it (though many have tried and failed), and scarcely any informal intellectual life. (Unlike, say, Columbia, U. Chicago, Swarthmore.)</p>

<p>Last, please don’t construe the headings (or their opposites) as implying one another (or their opposites). It’s just true that each of the headings separately captures the vast majority of Williams students.</p>

13

<p>My kid brother graduated from Williams a few years ago. He is an intellectual/nerdy nondrinker and loved the school. He did mention the prevalence of athletes and, in my view, did not find many “kindred spirits” which is a shame. Having said that, he is happy he went and he got a great education.</p>

14

<p>person5923,</p>

<p>You write “but you will not find them reading the Symposium or Gargantua and Pantagruel during the summer or discussing critiques of liberal political thought at dinner.”</p>

<p>My friends read precisely these sorts of things in their free time and during the summer. I don’t know why you feel can makes these sorts of broad-brush statements. And, really, you think that Duke is more “intellectual” than Williams? Really?</p>

<p>My good friend is a Columbia grad, and when comparing our undergraduate careers, he was surprised by the “informal intellectual life” I described at Williams. Columbia was like going to a school with a bunch of future dentists, he said; there were no informal bull sessions on intellectual matters when I was there. Maybe things have changed, but that was a fixture of a Williamstown winter when I was there.</p>

<p>Yours is not the only view of the College.</p>

15

<p>Person 5923,</p>

<pre><code>I just wanted to say that if I come across as peeved, it’s because my whole life at Williams was based around things you claim aren’t there. They are indeed there, but I totally sympathize with your disgust at the “mainstream” culture. It sucked then, I’m sure it sucks now. I often felt similar to you. But there is a different side to the school.
</code></pre>

<p>Some suggestions:
- Are you involved with any pseudo-intellectual extra-curricular groups? Newspaper, or debate, or campus politics? I met many interesting thinkers at these.
- I always found the great outdoors with which Williamstown is blessed to be a good antidote to the Collar Poppers and Pearl Girls. RRR Brooks Trail off Bee Hill Rd. especially.
– Have you tried finding like-minded folks? Maybe an anonymous posting on WSO, followed by group meet ups? Maybe an ad for people more interested in Boccaccio than “beast” (i.e., Milwaukee’s Best)?</p>

<p>I hope you find some people who are along your wavelength, because I’m sure there are some out there.</p>

16

<p>I thought that I’d mention some drawbacks to Williams that haven’t been discussed. Williams requires all of its students to finish in eight semesters. Leaves of absence don’t count toward the eight semesters. If you attend eight semesters and haven’t been able to finish your degree, you’ll be required to take approved classes at another school before Williams will award you your degree. I understand that some exceptions are made if serious illness was a factor.</p>

<p>Also, Williams reserves the right to change the requirements for graduation at any time. The college catalog that contains your requirements for graduation is the last one issued before you graduate. This is different from most schools where the requirements for graduation can be found in the first catalog of your first year at the college. This means that you typically will not know your requirements for graduation are until spring of your junior year. So don’t plan too far ahead - Williams requires you to remain flexible. If you ask about this, I suspect that you will be told that it is never a problem. But a couple of years ago a change was made that caused a handful of students to appeal for to the Committee on Academic Standing for relief. All petitions were routinely denied. I heard, unofficially, that in all likelihood something would be done to help a student who would fail to graduate due to the change (i.e., Williams doesn’t like its graduation statistics impacted). But nothing would be done to help a student who was impacted in a lesser manner - like being unable to complete a second major.</p>

<p>Also, it’s important to know that you can’t count on your academic adviser to keep you aware of changes. They aren’t always informed about the impact of changes. You as a student are held to a higher standard of awareness about the course catalog than are faculty or administrators.</p>

<p>You’ll get a great education at Williams, but you need to watch out for these pitfalls that you won’t find at other schools.</p>

17

<p>“It sucked then, I’m sure it sucks now. I often felt similar to you. But there is a different side to the school.”</p>

<p>So I just graduated. When I joined in 2006 there was still some semblance of this ‘different side’ you speak off, and I think the existence of Odd Quad had something to do with it. However, during my time at Williams I found a grand total of two people who were ‘intellectuals’ in the way the OP has defined the word. And as for people who’re non-mainstream - again, a tiny, tiny minority. Williams, I feel, is the kind of place that really doesn’t allow for subcultures to exist. </p>

<p>I’ve also been involved with two separate attempts to form a “pseudo intellectual” club. I’ve had my fair share of wso posts. I’ve tried engaging classmates/entrymates in conversations about things I cared about and was accused of trying to “hyper intellectualize” my life. </p>

<p>I think it’s possible that things have changed quite a lot at Williams since you’ve been there.</p>

18

<p>Wow, Ladylazarus, I’m sorry you had such a terrible experience. But let’s be honest here–this is your PERSONAL experience. And I’m going to speak frankly here because you have repeatedly posted your anti-Williams views on this mostly prospective site on CC, and I think it may impact some future students in their decision whether to go to Williams, and that’s plain wrong.</p>

<p>You generalize to ‘all’ Williams students and ‘exclusively’ Williams students based solely on your own personal experience. This is completely unscientific - and, ironically, anti-intellectual. How can you know what you assert? </p>

<p>What you argue is also very insulting to students currently at Williams, and based on my own daughter’s personal experience - just as valid and unscientific as your own - completely untrue. She loves it at Williams (so far). We are lower middle class, she is a non-athlete, she went to a regular public school, she is straight but our family is heavily involved in gay rights (two of her sibs are queer and were presidents of their school’s GSA), she doesn’t drink or party, and she is definitely quite ‘intellectual.’ On the long car ride up to Williams we listened - for pleasure - to A Bell Jar, Barber of Seville, Importance of Being Earnest, and Fidelio. SHe has found many like minded students so far. </p>

<p>To prospectives: Please feel free to im me if you have any concerns.</p>

19

<p>^^^this is totally unwarranted. Ladylazarus12 is a recent graduate and 52 posts in four years does not exactly make her a ■■■■■. It’s really strange how the slightest suggestion that Williams isn’t perfect immediately translates as “the writer must be unhappy” (i.e. crazy), the writer is “anti-Williams”, the writer is upsetting the universe. On the contrary, a great institution should be able to take constructive criticism in its stride.</p>

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<p>Really? Whose comments are ‘unwarranted’? When did I say she was a ■■■■■? Ladylazarus makes very serious sweeping accusations about Williams as a whole based on her own personal, limited experience, and insults current students; when I write in to contradict her point of view, MY comments are ‘unwarranted’? </p>

<p>She did not make the ‘slightest suggestion’ that Williams “isn’t perfect”–she has repeatedly attacked Williams for being, basically - and I’m exaggerating, but only slightly - full of anti-intellectual drunk shallow homophobic rich jocks. She attacks Williams and Williams students based on her own personal experience. Her own experience is her own experience. That’s it. She’s certainly entitled to it, but it’s her own opinion. That’s the point I’m making. We as online readers have zero idea what sort of person she is and how much her experience applies to others in general. The same of course applies to me or anyone posting here. That is why I offered up the experience of my own D who is absolutely not at all like this generalization nor has this been her own experience at all; she has plenty of friends who are not like this generalization. Yes, there are rich drunk jocks there. Gee, I wonder if there are rich drunk jocks in other elite colleges? My S went to NYU – based on his own experience, the use of cocaine, shrooms and pills is sky high there and if you think there are rich kids at Williams, try NYU. Does this make NYU a rich shallow ‘coke’ school more than other similar schools? We cannot know. IT’s his OWN experience. Is Williams MORE guilty than other similar schools of being chock full of dumb drunk homophobic rich jocks? Who knows? Until we know scientifically - intellectually - all we have is one or two or three ANECDOTES. And for those of you who are intellectual, anecdotes are absolutely meaningless statistically or scientifically. </p>

<p>Certainly her experience is valid for her and that’s fine. But that’s it. She crosses the line, to my mind, in posting frequently on this site, which attracts mostly potential Williams applicants, in the voice of authority rather than in the voice of personal limited experience, not saying ‘hey, this is my own experience and I’m posting it here so that people might know what I experienced; pm me if you have any questions.’</p>

<p>And if anybody would like to pm me, please feel free to do so.</p>