<p>And yes, I've encountered posters here that have said that sex is "icky.</p>
<p>I don;t think that they should be on this forum then.....
This 60 second rule is really annoying</p>
<p>ScAR,</p>
<p>I know plenty of people who wanted to "study" sex at 17 or 18. ;)</p>
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This 60 second rule is really annoying
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</p>
<p>Agreed. But script trolls are even worse.</p>
<p>Acceptance to the Ivy Leagues was harder this year than pretty much any year, according to all the articles I've been reading lately. So those who were accepted (unless they had legacy connections, etc) each must have had SOMETHING special to offer the school. They have to accept great kids in order to keep their prestige up. </p>
<p>The danger is when people (whether Ivy League admissions officers, the College Board, or even us) believe that a 2400 on the SAT's or a 5.0 GPA should be the main criteria for admissions. Every applicant is different and it's important to look at their WHOLE application, rather than just numbers.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, with the ridiculously low acceptance rates at these Ivies, I believe that all the rejected people will help bring what US News seems to view as second-tier schools up higher. Tufts, for instance, was accepting about 44% of applicants about ten years ago, I believe. And this year, it was around 26%. There are so many great institutions out there, and I think they will be getting some long overdue recognition in the coming years.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that they are trying to build a class. What kind of class is it when everybody virtually bring the same thing to the table?</p>
<p>It's not what the university can do for you, but what can you do for the university.</p>
<p>I think GShine<em>1989 and day</em>tripper87 were best able to understand and articulate the point I was trying to make. I am not saying that the Ivies are going in the toilet tomorrow but I think we are seeing a neutralizing of their prestige. As this huge bubble of incredibly talented (and in many cases well rounded as well) graduates choose the first tier non-ivy and even the top second tier schools, either by choice or necessity, these schools may (and probably will) surpass the Ivies on an academic rating. Some rank better than say Cornell already. If the Ivies continue to accept these well rounded kids (which in many cases do in fact have lower academic standings) we will see a gradual reversal in the rankings. </p>
<p>
Meanwhile thousands high school students are being molding into well rounded citizens by their parents and counselors in an attempt to clone the perfect student for college admission into the Ivies. You only get to be a kid once, there is no going back. If you love the flute, play the flute. The same should be true for sports or any thing else. Getting good grades should still be the focus because education stays with you through life.</p>
<p>
This has not impacted our lives personally, but there are thousands of kids this year not getting into the Ivies while less academically qualified kids are getting in. Those grads are going to go to these first tier non-ivy schools and graduate at the top of their class. They are going to be leaders in business and government and they are going to help recruit for their schools.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate that pilebay uses a somewhat racist approach to blame less than stellar education performance on immigrants.</p>
<p>
This country was founded by, built by, and made great by immigrants. Who in this country is not a descendant of an immigrant?</p>
<p>The fact that the citizens of the US are bred from immigrant stock is what makes our country great. Only the bravest, most daring, most courageous people had the guts to set out for the US to start a new life. It is no different than the selective breeding of lab rats. We are a driven nation because we were bred from selected stock that was itself driven. We are the bravest country because our ancestors, those immigrants, were brave.</p>
<p>Immigrants are great, the issue should only be the legality of the way they got here.</p>
<p>"If the Ivies continue to accept these well rounded kids (which in many cases do in fact have lower academic standings) we will see a gradual reversal in the rankings."</p>
<p>GradDad, I don't think that those who are accepted have lower academic standings than in the past. In fact, they are much higher as a group. What IS happening is students who once could have gotten into the Ivies now have to "settle" for second tier schools simply because of the numbers. The Ivies will not get weaker, but those below them will get stronger - provided that their endowments and faculty keep step with the demands of their students. Because of tradition and prestige, the Ivies will always get their pick of the best students nationwide. </p>
<p>The Ivies have always looked for well-rounded individuals. I know because I graduated from one 25 years ago, and the standards were the same. They are looking for leaders. They want their students to learn from each other as well as from their professors, so a diverse and engaged student body is a must. If anything, the reputation of the Ivies are increasing, not decreasing, because the sheer numbers allow for greater selectivity. Since I also interview for my alma mater, I know exactly the caliber of the admitted students - and they are all impressive. Of course, so are many of the denied students. </p>
<p>Lest you think the Ivies are the only ones searching for the socially well-rounded as well as the academically ambitious, look closely at the criteria for the top liberal arts colleges. They have the same standards. GPA, SATs, and class rank are important, but they do not define the admits as much as what the students do with their lives. The admissions office at Lehigh University, a national university, makes a point of telling applicants that they are looking for well-rounded individuals who can keep up their grades while participating in meaningful extra-curricular activities. They told our group specifically that the successful Lehigh candidate is a well-rounded and intelligent individual. Does that mean that Lehigh is dumbing down its student body? Of course not. It has been accepting students on this same model for decades, and the university is rising, not falling, in reputation. It's also one of the schools poised to snap up the Ivy denials, so I expect that this trend will continue.</p>
<p>There is very little evidence that the Ivies are hot to accept well rounded kids. In fact, that's a fallacy that you'll hear from frantic parents and students around town and posted by uninformed people on boards like CC.</p>
<p>What places like Ivies want is "well rounded classes," which means classes in which the students are very bright and represent a variety of talents and interests. Often that means that the majority of accepted students are very bright students who are well lopsided.</p>
<p>Back in the days in which I applied to Ivies (the late '60s), the Ivies were looking for well rounded bright students who had dabbled in a variety of activities. </p>
<p>That now has changed. For instance, typically what I see of each student accepted to Harvard from my area are: extremely high scores, gpa and an exceptionally strong course load plus about 2 exceptionally strong ECs or talents that stand out on at the very least a regional and state level, typically, however, a state and national level. The student also demonstrates through interview, probably their essays and recommendations, that the student is passionate about learning, is a leader (in far more than name) and appears to be out for the greater good of society, not just out to make a lot of bucks for themselves.</p>
<p>Very occassionally will an exceptionally well rounded student get in: But, it's clear that such students are self-directed to be well rounded, not forcing themselves to do things to impress Harvard. For instance, one student was a national champion in a language like Latin or Greek, was a national champion in math, had sky high test scores, valedictorian, and had demonstrated leadership in a variety of ways that clearly went beyond simply having a title. He was planning to major in something like philosophy. I didn't meet him until after his acceptance, so when I met him for dinner later, he certainly had no reason to put on a front. His converation was wide ranging and informed, and he demonstrated curiosity about a variety of subjects. There was absolutely no evidence that he was faking interests to interest Harvard.</p>
<p>Due to lack of space, each year, there are some students with the above characteristics who don't get in. However, from what I've seen, many of the students who don't get in may have high grades/scores and class rank, but have no demonstrated passion for doing anything except having their noses to the academic grindstones. Some may have activities that look good on paper, but fall apart in inteview and probably in terms of their recommendations because the activities were obviously pursued to dress up the students' resumes, not because the students were interested in them.</p>
<p>A large portion of the Ivy League experience is campus life including the hundreds of student-run extracurricular activities that students do purely for the love of it. For instance, about 300 students a year students may work for free for as many as 30 or more hours a week running Harvard's daily newspaper (including supervising the adults in the pressroom) even though most of the the students plan to go to medical school, business or law school (as did Franklin Roosevelt, who was editor in chief) and very few plan journalism careers.</p>
<p>Anyway, the Ivies strive to produce leaders who'll have an impact on all segments of society. Consequently, the Ivies attempt to accept students who demonstrate not only academic excellence and high intellect, but also demonstrate leadership and gregariousness indicating they'll contribute actively to campus life and society.</p>
<p>When it comes to Harvard, the admissions officers have said that at least 85% of the applicants are academically qualified for admission. Consequently, what makes a difference is the students' other activities beside pure academics and test scores.</p>
<p>This is an unbelievably worthless thread -- more unbelievably so than the AA trolls.</p>
<p>You perhaps forgot an important point, Northstarmom. Not only are 85% of Ivy <em>applicants</em> qualified, a even greater portion of the admitted students are qualified. That would include legacies, athletes, etc.</p>
<p>And here's a little provocative fact (yes, fact) for the OP. The extreme majority of the Ivy admits were also accepted to those 2nd-tiers you rave about & claim are on the edge of "surpassing" Ivies. </p>
<p>Brilliant people surpassed by the same brilliant people? </p>
<p>Yes, you're really brilliant yourself.</p>
<p>The OP is uninformed and a troll.</p>
<p>Nah. The "Which in your opinion is more prestigious?" thread wins the Worthless Thread award.</p>
<p>no, the stanford thread by TOR already got that award....</p>
<p>lol ./... no</p>
<p>I'm not sure if anybody posted this before hand, but in my opinion if you really want your kid to be surrounded by the best and the brightest, then send him/her to Caltech.</p>
<p>What's really weird is how EVERY college claims to want the well-rounded applicants, and they all say it in their catalogs and web sites like they alone just thought up the concept. The higher education landscape is certainly ripe for at least a few schools to say "To hell with well-rounded, we want the smartest people out there, and if our sports teams suck, and nobody gets laid, who cares?" </p>
<p>I think places like U of Chicago, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Harvey Mudd and CalTech seem to be LEANING in that direction. They need to be RUNNING in that direction in order for there to be more true variety among schools.</p>
<p>Also, if you do a little research on the origins of the premium put on well-rounded applicants, you'll find that HYP came up with the idea in the early 20th Century in order to limit the # of Jewish students (who were increasing in % when they went with mostly merit-based admissions for a while). Eventually everybody else followed their lead. Now the preference for well-rounded students is taken as something noble, and proof that the schools really care about the downtrodden whom their successful applicants helped with community service, and the shameful origin of this practice is forgotten.</p>
<p>"What's really weird is how EVERY college claims to want the well-rounded applicants,"</p>
<p>Not true at all.</p>
<p>I pretty much stopped reading the thread after reading this:</p>
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The people with 4.0s and 2400s may be SMART, but they will not be successful unless they cultivate these other skills.
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<p>because it's the most true thing I've ever come across on this website.</p>
<p>From Duke Alumni Magazine: " As application numbers go up and the applicant pool gets stronger, as grades and rigorous curriculum choices and standardized testing scores all are going through the roof, the "subjective" parts of the application become increasingly important. We look not only for students who are involved in their communities, but also for those who have made an impact. We look not only for well-rounded students, but also for well-lopsided applicants who have demonstrated real prowess, potential, and focus in a particular area....." <a href="http://www.dukemagazine.duke.edu/alumni/dm29/essay.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.dukemagazine.duke.edu/alumni/dm29/essay.html</a></p>
<p>Harvard: "Each case is different. Harvard seeks to enroll well-rounded students as well as a well-rounded first-year class. Thus, some students distinguish themselves for admission due to their unusual academic promise through experience or achievements in study or research. Other students present compelling cases because they are more "well rounded" - they have contributed in many different ways to their schools or communities. Still other successful applicants are "well lopsided," with demonstrated excellence in one particular endeavor - academic, extracurricular or otherwise. Some students bring perspectives formed by unusual personal circumstances or experiences. Like all colleges, we seek to admit the most interesting, able and diverse class possible."</p>
<p>Stanford: "Form T2 also asks about your extracurricular interests and involvement. Remember that there are no right answers. No club or activity is more important than another, and no essay topic will ensure your admission. With extracurricular activities, a sustained depth of commitment is more important than a long list of clubs you have joined. An exceptional experience in one or two activities demonstrates your passion more than minimal participation in five or six clubs. We want to see the impact your participation has had on that club, in your school, or in the larger community.</p>
<p>Our job is to assemble a well-rounded student body, and we know that such a group will include both well-rounded students and what we call well-lopsided or angular students, those who excel at one or two activities. Merely being involved in many clubs is not what is most important; your depth of commitment in whatever you do interests us the most."</p>
<p>Rachel Toor: "The job of admissions officers is to recruit, to boost application numbers. The more applications, the lower the admit rate, the higher the institutional ranking. Increasing application numbers is usually the No. 1 mandate of the recruiting season. Partly, that means trying to get the very best students to apply. But it also means trying to persuade those regular, old Bright Well-Rounded Kids (B.W.R.K.'s, in admissionese) to apply -- so that the college can reject them and bolster its selectivity rating. Reject them because there are so many of them, and because they're actually not as interesting as the "well-lopsided" kids -- those who have shown real prowess and potential in a more focused manner."</p>
<p>The New Yorker: " One of the effects of the increase in demand from the days when headmasters could chauffeur their preferred students into élite colleges is a shift in emphasis from what some admissions officers refer to as B.W.R.K.sbright well-rounded kidsto what are known as well-lopsided students. Its no longer the students who are well-rounded, in other words; its the class. This is why an applicants special markers matter so much: differentiation is what colleges are looking for. Harvard rejects twenty-five per cent of its toll free candidates. It is not looking for the perfect student; it is looking for the perfect class. In effect, the admissions office has a dozen mini-quotas to fill. "</p>
<p>Northstarmom, when I said that all colleges say they want well-rounded students, I don't mean they say they want ONLY well-rounded students. It just means they have a place in their admissions calculations for being on the debate team, on the wrestling team, helping charities, etc. What I'm saying is why don't at least a FEW colleges in the US give total academic merit a try? In a lot of other countries this is the way it works, so it's not a revolutionary concept. Certainly out of the thousands of colleges in the US, we could afford to have a few where higher grades and test scores are all that matter, not that you were secretary of the bull$**t-EC-of-the-week club.</p>
<p>um...caltech?</p>
<p>"What I'm saying is why don't at least a FEW colleges in the US give total academic merit a try"</p>
<p>Sure. CalTech, Cooper Union and St. John University (Annapolis and New Mexico) are noted for choosing students based on pure academic merit. Also, frankly at most US universities, if you have high grades, scores and class rank, you'll be virtually automatically admitted.In fact, the majority of US colleges admit most of their applicants.</p>
<p>Out of the thousands of universities in the U.S., it's only the top 25 or so that are able to heavily count things like ECs in their admissions process. That's because places like HPYS have such an abundance of highly qualified applicants that those universities can afford to reject high stat students that other universities would eagerly snap up. The stats are already so high at those universities that they can afford to pass on the valedictorian students with 2400 scores who do nothing else but study in favor of students with acceptable, but not as stellar stats who will also enrich their campus' extracurricular activities.</p>
<p>For instance, Yoyo Ma, Leonard Bernstein, John Kennedy, Al Franken, Benazir Bhutto -- all are Harvard grads who contributed a great deal to the world in ways other than academics. For all I know, they may have been accepted over applicants who had higher IQs, grades or scores and may have eventually turned into an excellent university professor or academic researcher. </p>
<p>However, Harvard wants to produce world leaders, famous musicians, heck, even famous comedians, not just academics.</p>
<p>What other countries do isn't that relevant to most US universities. That's because in many other countries, universities center only on producing students with great academic knowledge. </p>
<p>In the US, however, virtually all universities view it as part of their mission to develop students in terms of extracurriculars, leadership and similar things that after graduation will help students contribute in a variety of ways to our society, which does highly value things such as leadership, community service, ability to function on a team (at work and elsewhere), etc.</p>
<p>Great posts, Northstarmom. One correction, though: St. John's College (MD and NM) does not admit purely on academics - at least, not in the sense that others mean here. They require on campus interviews, with extensive talk about the applicant's passion for learning, and that outweighs grades and SAT scores. So, yes, while ECs don't count, SAT scores and grades have much less importance than at other schools. I know one student who got Bs and Cs pretty much through high school, who did get good SATs, and who applied late - and got into St. John's. That's because he is a smart kid who is just hitting his stride now. He had great teacher recs. Plus, he had the benefit of being passionate about the classics and reading.</p>